Max G

[Gatlin Gun]

Ok...I can't seem to find it in the POH, the search function here, or my best-friend-Google...  What's the max G in a M20k Rocket??

This is what happens when I spend a few weeks around bros with RV-7s and old WWI bi-planes.  I don't know.  I don't plan to start doing loops or anything...but in bad weather and/or the need to maneuver...what's the max G?

[RLCarter]

Normal Category is +3.8 and -1.52

[Pete M]

Before it breaks? Standard j? Bout 22g's. Will out g an rv al day long.

 

Edited February 1, 2020 by Pete M

[bradp]

In bad weather you should be flying at +1 G.  

[Yetti]

 

[PT20J]

Every time this comes up, the ultimate load for the Mooney wing seems to increase. We’ve got 22, do I hear 30?

[N201MKTurbo]

We should stop worrying about the wing and worry about the tail. Or the motor mount.

Any one will bring you down.

I personally like to keep the Gs around 1.

 

[David Lloyd]

I remember reading many years ago the factory tried to find the ultimate load the wing was capable.  Broke the test rig somewhere around 11 or 12 G's.  Yep you are unlikely to break the wing while still conscious.  Something else will break first, before you black out.

Pulling a couple G's in an RV is great fun.  For me, about 3.5 was the limit for fun.  4 Was uncomfortable, 5 was painful.  According to the meter, I pulled 6 once just for the experience.  Uh, been there, done that.  Unless I flew aero every week, anything more than a couple rolls or loops had me feeling bad for an entire day.

[Ibra]

You mean turbulent weather? if in doubt cut power off, trim slightly forward, fly almost handoff (rudder only) and just hope for the best 

If you reduce speed (aka reduce power), at least you stall before hitting max G limits (and helps keep tail/engine where they are in turbulence)

I advise against hitting stall at VS1, but at least you will have a chance to recover, actually as many attempts as 1000ft bellow

Hitting max G/VNE in spiral dives or max tail buffeting in turbulence are one-offs... 

Edited February 1, 2020 by Ibra

[Gatlin Gun]

1 hour ago, bradp said:

In bad weather you should be flying at +1 G.

You're never at a constant 1G...unless you're on the ground.  

[Gatlin Gun]

1 hour ago, PT20J said:

Every time this comes up, the ultimate load for the Mooney wing seems to increase. We’ve got 22, do I hear 30?

I guess this is my point.  

I'm not looking to max perform "for fun", but I've flown a lot of different jets and airplanes.  Lots.  Not knowing "the limits" just blows my mind.  

[Gatlin Gun]

So really what i'm hearing is: there is nothing published for M20K max G??

[Gatlin Gun]

20 hours ago, RLCarter said:

Normal Category is +3.8 and -1.52

Sorry, just saw your post Carter...  Is this published for M20K?, because I have heard those numbers uttered in Mooney circles.

[PT20J]

Google M20K POH: http://www.sparrowflyingclub.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/M20K-POH-N654JB.pdf

Load factors would be a limitation: Look in limitations section. (Hint: page 2-8)

BTW, @RLCarter answered this correctly: It's a normal category airplane and they are ALL the same by regulation.

Skip

 

[Gatlin Gun]

Well, +3.8 / -1.5 is respectable!  

Awesome, thanks guys.  Just couldn't seem to find it.  

[Immelman]

1 hour ago, Gatlin Gun said:

Well, +3.8 / -1.5 is respectable!  

Awesome, thanks guys.  Just couldn't seem to find it.  

If you want to know where, I believe CAR3 and FAR part 23 discuss the the certification requirements and include all sorts of things including load factors.

 

 

[carusoam]

Seems to be a challenge of flying fancy aircraft...  

Some of us have experience of Utility aircraft....

All of us have experience of Normal aircraft...

Where we actively avoid tearing parts off the plane... engine, tail, wing....    bumpy air... and maneuvering speed... go together...
 

Another place we use some cautious limitations...   Banking to 60° we pull 2gs...   the gs increase a lot beyond 60°....

It’s a great question to ask... surprisingly it isn’t mentioned every other page of the POH... of course if it did... planes wouldn’t sell...

PP thoughts only, not a CFI...

Best regards,

-a-

 

[Gatlin Gun]

 

29 minutes ago, carusoam said:

Seems to be a challenge of flying fancy aircraft...  

It’s a great question to ask... surprisingly it isn’t mentioned every other page of the POH... of course if it did... planes wouldn’t sell...

Hahahahaha!  It's been a good ride...literally.  

And thanks, Carusoam...  As soon as the Dual G5s get installed (2 weeks-ish), i'm ready to get out there again!  Not flying sucks.

[bradp]

You’ll like the G5s.  They’re simple and effective- not a lot of bells and whistles but the redundancy and 8hrs of battery backup are great. 

[81X]

9 hours ago, N201MKTurbo said:

We should stop worrying about the wing and worry about the tail. Or the motor mount.

Any one will bring you down.

I personally like to keep the Gs around 1.

 

The attach points and hardware for those are indeed shockingly small.  
 

I wouldn’t even consider a wing failure in a Mooney but I do worry about the four tiny bolts holding that few hundred pound TSIO 360, prop, and accessories on!  
 

it cracks me up that the bolts holding the prop on are plentiful and mammoth, but then the bolts securing that prop plus the engine and accessories to the airframe are tiny.  Some engineer probably has a good reason.  

[N201MKTurbo]

With the few occasions I have had to fly around in military jets. The thing that impressed me the most was how easy it was to quickly load up the Gs . You have to be careful with a nimble airplane doing 400 KTS or better.

[jetdriven]

7 hours ago, 81X said:

The attach points and hardware for those are indeed shockingly small.  
 

I wouldn’t even consider a wing failure in a Mooney but I do worry about the four tiny bolts holding that few hundred pound TSIO 360, prop, and accessories on!  
 

it cracks me up that the bolts holding the prop on are plentiful and mammoth, but then the bolts securing that prop plus the engine and accessories to the airframe are tiny.  Some engineer probably has a good reason.  

But those bolts have never broken and caused an accident, so anything bigger is not needed.  I’d say the design got it right. 
what’s the tensile and shear failure load for a AN4 bolt?  

[Ibra]

3 hours ago, N201MKTurbo said:

With the few occasions I have had to fly around in military jets. The thing that impressed me the most was how easy it was to quickly load up the Gs . You have to be careful with a nimble airplane doing 400 KTS or better.

Probably the same on a Mooney decent at 200kts, stick stiffness and teeth wiggling tells me everything about max loads

In the other hand hard I find it hard to break anything no matter what to do with the stick going slow than 80kts  

Edited February 1, 2020 by Ibra

[PT20J]

45 minutes ago, jetdriven said:

But those bolts have never broken and caused an accident, so anything bigger is not needed.  I’d say the design got it right. 
what’s the tensile and shear failure load for a AN4 bolt?  

According to http://skybolt.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/12/Skybolt-AN-MS-NAS-Hardware-12-7-2017.pdf

Tensile yield is 3130 lbs, shear yield is 3680 lbs.

[Gatlin Gun]

6 hours ago, N201MKTurbo said:

With the few occasions I have had to fly around in military jets. The thing that impressed me the most was how easy it was to quickly load up the Gs . You have to be careful with a nimble airplane doing 400 KTS or better.

Yea, if you couldn't tell from the pic, that's where I started...  And maybe that's why I asked the "g limit" question.  Seemed so basic and yet not so readily available to find the answer.