CB IFR rating: 61.65(a)(8)(ii) says I can do the practical portion in a Sim??? Huh???

[tigers2007]

There is a Redbird FMX (full motion) sim in Sheboygan, WI that rents for $30/hr. As the Wx has been miserable all Winter, I pretty much abandoned all hope to acquire my Instrument until late Spring. I was just perusing 14 CFR 61.65 and it reads,

(8) Pass the required practical test on the areas of operation in paragraph (c) of this section in -

(i) An airplane, helicopter, or powered-lift appropriate to the rating sought; or

(ii) A full flight simulator or a flight training device appropriate to the rating sought and for the specific maneuver or instrument approach procedure performed. If an approved flight training device is used for the practical test, the instrument approach procedures conducted in that flight training device are limited to one precision and one nonprecision approach, provided the flight training device is approved for the procedure performed.

Has anyone actually done this or heard about someone doing this for their initial IFR rating?? I'm still planning going to Sheboygan to ride the FMX to rack up sim hours but actually doing the practical in a proper Sim seems to be shocking.

[PT20J]

I recently did an IPC in a AATD. We did have to fly a circle to land approach in the airplane only because the AATD wasn’t approved for that maneuver, but everything else was done in the AATD. 

Skip

[midlifeflyer]

I wouldn't be shocked at all. I'd actually be terrified since the DPE could insert all sorts of emergencies and failures which couldn't be done in an airplane. Even basic partial panel in a round dial would not be a big hairy hand with a cover announcing it, but a small almost imperceptible degradation in attitude and heading accuracy as they wind down.

Edited January 21, 2020 by midlifeflyer

[PT20J]

14 minutes ago, midlifeflyer said:

I wouldn't be shocked at all. I'd actually be terrified since the DPE could insert all sorts of emergencies and failures which couldn't be done in an airplane. Even basic partial panel in a round dial would not be a big hairy hand with a cover announcing it, but a small almost imperceptible degradation in attitude and heading accuracy as they wind down.

Yep, the autopilot failure in the sim was much more realistic — and difficult to detect  and recover from — than the standard unusual attitude recovery maneuvers. 
 

[carusoam]

as a graduate of a 10-day IFR training program... you may use quite a few hours in the sim... before going and doing it for real...

Great for learning all the in cruise parts, followed by all the various approach types...

In the end you want to be familiar with it all in your Mooney...

In the beginning you get to do it all... make mistakes. Instant reset. Go again...

I used a Frasca stationary version, simulating a C172, a decade ago... probably  X-plane based... but no different than MSFS... for ease of use...

Sims and rules have come a ways since then...

part 1: Written... needed info, but mostly not much about actual flying in IMC...

part 2: procedures... needed info, but mostly combined with a desk top computer and simulated ATC...

part3: Real life... the important final connection between the pilot, the machine, and the system...

Save dough, do it in comfort, use the sim... but expect that it gets you near the end... Not the whole way... unless you have this skill from somewhere else... like your dad let you fly a Mooney IFR all the time...   

PP thoughts only, not a CFI...

Best regards,

-a-

[Immelman]

IR is the following:

- Procedures, rules, regulations. Attitude instrument flying, partial panel, how to fly an approach, how to read and brief an approach, how to get a clearance and understand what it means, what do do when you lose comms..

- Familiarity with your airplane and its equipment for the above

- Judgement & decision making (comes with real flying, x-c training) SHOULD you go, how much gas to take, and what is your plan B/C. This is different from learning the regs. Understanding ATC (real world) and the IFR 'system'.

- Multitasking.... time-slicing your tiny brain which will lose most of its IQ when trying to divide attention between all of the above.

A sim is great for the first one, poor for the second, marginal for the third, and will help for the last one. And like the one above said, you can hit reset and try something again, rather than going through the motions to set up for another approach or hold entry burning fuel and instructor time.

 

Go go get a good CFII And use that sim til the weather improves, then move to your airplane.

Edited January 22, 2020 by Immelman

[Greg Ellis]

23 hours ago, midlifeflyer said:

I wouldn't be shocked at all. I'd actually be terrified since the DPE could insert all sorts of emergencies and failures which couldn't be done in an airplane. Even basic partial panel in a round dial would not be a big hairy hand with a cover announcing it, but a small almost imperceptible degradation in attitude and heading accuracy as they wind down.

I agree with this.  I would not do the check ride in the simulator.  You are just trying to get the rating.  That is not a time to simulate it better than real world.  Get your rating then use the simulator to practice, practice, practice emergencies that can be set up as they would happen in real life.  Partial panel in the check is nothing compared to how it happens in real life so don't put the added stress on yourself.  Set yourself up for success then use the simulator to practice the real life emergencies.

Back in the early 2000's when I got my Instrument rating, the only simulator available to me was an old Frasca simulator that had just the yoke and instrument panel.  Nothing out the view screen.  The instructor could program things in the simulator but pretty rudimentary.  However, I remember my first time in it, my instructor failed the attitude indicator.  I followed the tumbling gyro right to the scene of the crash.  I will never forget it and it solidified it for me how important it was to practice partial panel and emergencies.

[tigers2007]

As I spat in the wind, it all came back. You're correct, I can totally see now that a sim-based practical being absolute mayhem as it totally introduces the opportunity for those moments they want to push the testing even further -- all that wouldn't happen done in a real aircraft. My PPL DE seemed to be getting ill during the practical and she had me put it down. My reward for a once-in-a-lifetime-perfect-short-soft-field-carrier-deck-landing got me a white piece of paper. 

[PT20J]

My multiengine practical test lasted less than half an hour. Consisted of IFR to VFR on top departure from KSJC, a Vmc demo, then a failed restart when the weak starter wouldn’t turn the feathered prop past a compression stroke, followed by a single engine ILS to minimums back to KSJC. Examiner said I did good enough for him and signed me off.

Skip

[thinwing]

On 1/22/2020 at 1:37 PM, PT20J said:

My multiengine practical test lasted less than half an hour. Consisted of IFR to VFR on top departure from KSJC, a Vmc demo, then a failed restart when the weak starter wouldn’t turn the feathered prop past a compression stroke, followed by a single engine ILS to minimums back to KSJC. Examiner said I did good enough for him and signed me off.

Skip

My exact experience with my multi in 1989 at same location...

[thinwing]

That’s when I learned about unfeathering accumulators!

[PT20J]

7 minutes ago, thinwing said:

That’s when I learned about unfeathering accumulators!

Yep, I did my multi-commercial in a Seminole. I did my multi-CFI in a Duchess with accumulators. In between I flew a C-310B and once shut down an engine in flight for practice. Couldn't get it to crank past a compression stroke either (that's when I learned about slipping Continental starter adapters). Landed uneventfully at SJC but could not taxi the darn thing straight on one engine. Used every trick I knew but ended up making a couple of 360s on the taxiway. When I finally threw in the towel and requested to park it in the grass and get a tow, the ground controller approved it and I could hear laughter in the background when he keyed his mic.

Skip

[thinwing]

Ha Ha..I landed low on fuel at Loreto Mex and while taxing unported left engine during a turn and couldn’t restart with same results as you including all The laughter