Surefly ignition

[Shadrach]

I’ve been flying my F for 14 years. Starting is not a problem hot or cold. If the only major advantage is to make an easy to start engine mindlessly easy to start, then I see no value.

Edited August 4, 2020 by Shadrach

[Yetti]

1 hour ago, Shadrach said:

I’ve been flying my F for 14 years. Starting is not a problem hot or cold. If the only major advantage is to make an easy to start engine mindlessly easy to start, then I see know value.

That's not the only benefit to being able to advance or retard the ignition.

 

[carusoam]

There is going to be more value...

imagine how much more efficiency a Mooney could get... another nmpg?  At Carson’s Speed?
 

PP thinking out loud...

Best regards,

-a-

[47U]

4 hours ago, bob865 said:

Found it!  Called Surefly and he offered 3 part numbers.  He couldn't tell me which one was right, except that the longer part number is the dual keyway part.  I did some googling and found webpage which explains what is going on.  The webpage is talking specifically about the robinson helicopter, but the gears are the same.

https://www.aircraftmagnetoservice.net/magneto-coupling

For reference in case someone needs it in the future, the dual keyway part number is 68C19622

Nice research, Bob!  You proved the dual keyway gear rumor to be true.  Ironic that you found the reference PN at Aircraft Magneto Service who overhauled my right mag (basically sent me a new one for about .8 amu).  The old one was the wrong part number (???).  The new mag runs perfectly.  Not wanting to change out both mags on the same annual (if it’s not broke, don’t fix it), I swapped the left mag to the SureFly the following annual and include as benefits no more 500 inspections and getting rid of the shower of sparks.  If it’s not installed, I don’t have to maintain it.  So far, so good.

tom 

[Shadrach]

7 hours ago, Yetti said:

That's not the only benefit to being able to advance or retard the ignition.

 

Thanks Yeti. I’ll have to do some studying on internal combustion...

I’ve yet to see any anecdotal evidence to suggest that Surefly makes a significant difference in climb or cruise performance. There are a lot of comments on easy starting. Time to climb or TAS or FF not so much.  While it’s very true that ignition timing fixed at 25° is a compromise, it may also be true that there is not a great deal of real world performance to be gained by optimizing ignition advance at the rpm/piston speed range that most aero engines operate. I’ve had high hopes for Surefly and I am sure it increases power to some degree but I’ve yet to read a compelling pirep. It may be that advancing a single mag (another compromise) rather than both is minimizing the potential gains.

[bob865]

1 hour ago, Shadrach said:

Thanks Yeti. I’ll have to do some studying on internal combustion...

I’ve yet to see any anecdotal evidence to suggest that Surefly makes a significant difference in climb or cruise performance. There are a lot of comments on easy starting. Time to climb or TAS or FF not so much.  While it’s very true that ignition timing fixed at 25° is a compromise, it may also be true that there is not a great deal of real world performance to be gained by optimizing ignition advance at the rpm/piston speed range that most aero engines operate. I’ve had high hopes for Surefly and I am sure it increases power to some degree but I’ve yet to read a compelling pirep. It may be that advancing a single mag (another compromise) rather than both is minimizing the potential gains.

For me, it was not just a general upgrade for the sake of it.  My plane didn't start well at all.  Everything functioned properly, the necessary spark energy just wasn't there I assume due to worn or out of adjusted points.  I needed to replace or rebuild the SOS box.  A new one was ~$600.  If I was going to replace it, I was going to replace it with a high power capacitive discharge slick start for the extra spark energy which jumps the cost to ~$1000.  By the time I was at $1000, the extra ~$300 wasn't a big jump for the full electronic mag which doesn't have a 500 hr life, and has spark advance.  Whether the spark advance is useful or not is yet to be seen; by me at least.  So I agree with your statement, but when I'm putting the money in already, a few hundred extra dollars was an easy justification.  Replacing just because, not so much.

[Yetti]

3 hours ago, Shadrach said:

Thanks Yeti. I’ll have to do some studying on internal combustion...

I’ve yet to see any anecdotal evidence to suggest that Surefly makes a significant difference in climb or cruise performance. There are a lot of comments on easy starting. Time to climb or TAS or FF not so much.  While it’s very true that ignition timing fixed at 25° is a compromise, it may also be true that there is not a great deal of real world performance to be gained by optimizing ignition advance at the rpm/piston speed range that most aero engines operate. I’ve had high hopes for Surefly and I am sure it increases power to some degree but I’ve yet to read a compelling pirep. It may be that advancing a single mag (another compromise) rather than both is minimizing the potential gains.

I was thinking more like a plastic gear that holds the airplane in the sky.  Semi constant maintenance, Long term reliability as a 2000 hour TBO vs 500.  which would equate to 4 rebuilds on a traditional mag. Tell me again last time you replaced and adjusted the points in your car.   But hey you be you.

Edited August 4, 2020 by Yetti

[Shadrach]

8 hours ago, Yetti said:

I was thinking more like a plastic gear that holds the airplane in the sky.  Semi constant maintenance, Long term reliability as a 2000 hour TBO vs 500.  which would equate to 4 rebuilds on a traditional mag. Tell me again last time you replaced and adjusted the points in your car.   But hey you be you.

The Bendix ignition system in my plane has not been plagued by any of that. The 500hr IRANs are done locally, though I understand most just exchange. I misunderstood your comment to be about ignition advance as you stated and not about the reliability of traditional mags. There are certainly advantages to having a solid state ignition. Bob made a great case for his upgrade. However, in a situation like mine where the plane starts easily and the ignition system works reliably, I’m not seeing a compelling reason to switch.

[Gary0747]

Installed my during my annual last month. I have not gotten any higher altitude cruse data but I really like the way it runs in the sight seeing low altitude lean of peak mode.  Pull the mp back to 20 inches where the advance timing kicks in and go way lean of peak to burn 6.5 gph and it is still Very smooth and yielding between 125 and 130 knots.  Starting is normally not more than two blades. 

[ArtVandelay]

I was thinking more like a plastic gear that holds the airplane in the sky.  Semi constant maintenance, Long term reliability as a 2000 hour TBO vs 500.  which would equate to 4 rebuilds on a traditional mag. Tell me again last time you replaced and adjusted the points in your car.   But hey you be you.

You’re assuming the Surefly will be maintenance free for 2000 hours, I have my doubts about electronics mounted directly onto a hot and vibrating engine lasting that long.

[jamesm]

Surefly electronic ignition  has done me well.  These are the same people who brought us Plane Power Alternators and Skytec Starters.  I would admit getting the Installation on the Surefly  wasn't as smooth as the installation on the Gruman in the video.  Jason and company have proven themselves to me. Quality products at reasonable price. Me personally haven't had any problems whatsoever skytec starter or Plane Power Alternator.  With one exception skytec starter. The housing had started to come loose from the assembly that ties it to the ring gear. This after about 15 years of use..

Not sure you could make same statements about other certified aircraft parts out on the market. Dual magneto, vacuum pumps to name a few.

I certainly trust the quality and design that is in the Surefly ingition over prestolite starter or delco Remy generator and voltage regulator, vacuum pump any day.

Just my opinion.

 

James '67C

[Austintatious]

20 hours ago, Yetti said:

I was thinking more like a plastic gear that holds the airplane in the sky.  Semi constant maintenance, Long term reliability as a 2000 hour TBO vs 500.  which would equate to 4 rebuilds on a traditional mag. Tell me again last time you replaced and adjusted the points in your car.   But hey you be you.

FYI the Surefly TBO is 2400 hours

[cctsurf]

Count me as another who had to replace the drive gear to get the Surefly timed  to TDC.

I picked up the Superior equivalent gear p/n SL68C19622 when I purchased the SIM, hoping I wouldn't have to use it.  When I went to install it, I installed the old gear with the hopes of sending back the new one.  I fiddled around and reinserted the SIM 3x before giving up.  I replaced the gear, clocked to the alternate position (according to the surefly materials) with the key pointing between the teeth and the SIM inserted almost perfectly in the center of adjustment travel.

I'm sure my gear was original to the airplane from 1962.

[Yourpilotincommand]

On 11/25/2019 at 6:33 PM, Spurious Moppet said:

We got our surefly installed recently. The Bendix ignition switch has been replaced with the EA-15000 switch panel, which is the one for two magnetos (surefly is controlled like a magneto).

The wife prefers push to start without the gymnastics of the old Bendix key switch and I want to encourage her aviation habit by making startup not require three hands.

I have the same exact panel on my E, except my G5’s are not recessed. I like the recessed better.

[cferr59]

So I have joined the overpriced dual keyway gear club.  I went to install the Surefly and the closest I could get it timed was around 2-3 degrees off.  I purchased a new gear and will be finishing the install with my A&P/IA on Saturday.  The best deal on the gear I could find is the SL68C19622 Superior part from AirPower.