Stupid Mistakes

[201er]

I made a few stupid mistakes in my 201 on recent flights. I wanted to check with you guys just how bad these were and if any action needs to be taken since I'm going by my mechanic tomorrow anyway. Let me just point out I realized my folly in all cases as I was doing it but didn't occur soon enough to prevent it:

 

1) Exceeded oil temp red line for up to 5 minutes during climb. I was climbing to a higher altitude than I ever fly at (9,500'). I was leaning heavily because EGTs were staying pretty low and CHTs were in line. All seemed good until I realized oil temp was over red line. I'm kind of surprised and don't understand how oil temp can be so high when EGT/CHT are relatively low. Anyway, when I realized this, I threw the mixture forward and put the nose lower. Cowl flaps were already open.

 

2) In the pattern at a towered airport the tower wanted me to slow up, 360, and extend for spacing. So I had the gear and half flaps to fly around 80kts. Then on final tower told me to keep the speed up with a jet behind me on final. I gave it a lot of power (with the gear being down) and tried to go faster. I kind of forgot the flaps were already extended. I forget the max speed I hit because the flaps wouldn't let me go all that fast. So I'm not sure if I actually exceeded Vfe or not but I was somewhere up around there. This was dumb, should have retracted the flaps to go faster, was more focused on speeding up and forgot I was already in landing configuration. This is not a frequent occurance for me since I normally fly in/out of non-towered airports.

 

3) During cruise flight (4500ft, 145ktas, ? kias) my passenger was asking me about the rudder and what would happen if you just push the rudder pedals without stick, etc. So I pushed hard left and then hard right rudder to demonstrate. I've done this before in gliders and slow flying airplanes no problem. But I forgot I was in a fast plane, in cruise, and over maneuvering speed. I don't think this would exceed the load on the wings which maneuvering speed is mainly about (like pulling hard on the elevator) but could this hurt the rudder, stabilizer, or anything else? Once again a stupid mistake that I only realized as it was going on.

 

The plane has been flying since and I have learned from it but need to know just how bad this is? Don't kill me I hope.

[Parker_Woodruff]

1) I might recommend an oil change since there is the possibility the oil lost some of its typical properties when it exceeds a max temperature.

2) You're probably fine.

3) Maneuvering speed is, in fact, designed so that you don't make full, abrupt control movements above that speed without stalling.  Here's an example, and maybe one of the engineers can explain it better.

Let's say you're flying your 2740 lb Mooney at maneuvering speed.  IIRC, that's 118 KIAS at that weight.  If you were to make an abrupt, full aft yoke movement, the wings would not be loaded more than 10,412 lbs at that speed, without stalling (3.8 Gs, the max certified load of your plane).  Will the wing split in half?  Doubtful.  Could it provide undue stress on your seat rails and other equipment installed in the plane to put more than 3.8 G load on your plane?  Absolutely.

What would happen with a full aft yoke movement at 150 KIAS?  More than 3.8 Gs before a stall was reached, which your airplane is not certified to do.

So the question is, did you make an abrupt, full control movement while over Va?  Regardless of the answer, my guess is your Mooney is undamaged.

[jetdriven]

My take:

1.  I wouldnt be concerned, but I would change the oil before flying it again.  Mooneys like higher airspeeds, like 110-120 KIAS for the climb.  Mixture at target (250 ROP) or a little leaner as you get higher.  We csan go to 150 ROP when careful above 9,00 feet in the climb, but it likes airspeed. 2700 RPM helps the climb tremendously.  Level off periodically if the oil temp keeps climbing. Careful when richening the mixture a huge amount.  Shock cooling debate aside, it cant help the engine by flooding it with fuel suddenly.

2. No big deal if its a few knots.  Dont make a habit of it. It is a limitation, however, so make a visual inspection of the flap skins for overstress.

3. American lost a vertical stabilizer on an A300 doing this. There later came an FAA memo that said you can overstress an airplane with rapid reversing inputs well below maneuvering speeds. I read somewhere that the envelope corner on these type ( piston) planes is usually full rudder and simultaneous full down elevator.  The very first bonanza was lost doing this in 1946. The tail failed and the airplane pitchpoled, shedding a wing and then tumbled to the ground. I doubt you hurt it, but take a look at the vertical stab, rudder, and hinges for any signs of overstress.  As always, a qualified mechanic is your best insurance.

I dont worry much about structural failures as Mooney is just about the strongest plane built.

[74657]

When the oil gets hot your pressure drops and can cause bearing issues.  The oil likely got hot because the engine CHT's got hot because of a lack of fuel during climb.  I'd change the oil and send it in for analysis to see whats going on.  If it checks out well then you're OK.  My bet is that you are fine.  Don't make a habit of doing that.  Those mistakes are very expensive to fix.

[John Pleisse]

1) No Biggie

2) No Biggie

3) No Biggie

You seem like a conciencious guy and these are small bonehead things you would never make a habbit of. I'd keep an eye on the oil temp and presure.

[jlunseth]

Quote: N4352H

1) No Biggie

2) No Biggie

3) No Biggie

You seem like a conciencious guy and these are small bonehead things you would never make a habbit of. I'd keep an eye on the oil temp and presure.

[201er]

BTW, the oil pressure was ok, just the oil temp went too high. The oil had just been changed a few hours prior to this happening. W100 SAE 50 is the kind of oil. My guess it's a good thing it was this kind because it is better suited for hotter temperatures?

On a good note, I've had a couple of my best engine starts and landings recently as well.

[201er]

Quote: jlunseth

I agree.  On behalf of your aircraft, you are forgiven. 

The only one that did not make sense to me is the oil temp if in fact the CHT's were not high.  You don't say what they were, just that they were "in line."  I am guessing they were "in line" but too high, or you were low on oil, or you oil pump is not working right.  CHT's should not exceed 380 dF.  Check your oil, or better yet get it changed.  When you get it changed, get an extra quart.  Once you run the engine after the oil change and the oil spreads around through the engine, it will probably want that extra quart. 

[scottfromiowa]

I always cruise climb at 120MPH.  Still over 500fpm, covering ground and all is well under the cowl.  Good on you to catch all these "oops" BEFORE it's a bad habit.  USE YOUR CHECk LISTS...Make THAT a HABIT.  I ususally do not use take off flaps as I am often flying alone or with one other person.  If I have three or four/high density day I use flaps for take-off and tell everyone "REMIND ME TO RAISE FLAPS"!  This is as much an at loud verbal reminder to myself.  Only forgot once and wondered why is this thing NOT trimming....DOH! 

I am HORRIBLE about remembering to turn on/off the boost pump.  My check list has "cured" me of this.  A gear mantra is also key.  ESPECIALLY if working in the pattern.  You are starting to get "comfortable".  Double and triple checking the gear on final/short final is an excellent mantra to NOT join me in the GU club.  Have fun,

Scott

[jetdriven]

Likely your high oil temp was because of low airflow, these planes really dont like 90 KIAS or less.    I think W100 holds its viscosity better at high temperatures.  15W50 is so thin to begin with.

[Jeff_S]

So what was your oil temp, anyway? And I'm really surprised by your EGTs being below 1200 as you say. It almost sounds like you had leaned to an LOP setting, which is not the best thing in the world to do when trying to climb quickly. But I would agree with the general consensus that the odd occurrence of such things as you suggest is not going to be a big problem...I've made a few of these bonehead mistakes as well as I learn the J, like forgetting to push mixture in full-rich on takeoff and then wondering why my EGT/CHTs start to skyrocket! But that IO-360 is one tough beast and will take a lot of punishment.

[jetdriven]

To prevent taking off leaned:  when you lean on the ground lean it as much as possible.    It won't go to takeoff power like this, it just stumbles.  Reminds you to go rich again.

[201er]

I couldn't have been LOP. When pulling back on mixture EGTs were going up. It was taking a lot of leaning cause I was up to 7 or 8 thousand feet by that point in a 15+ minute climb. I didn't think the oil temp could get so high when the EGT/CHTs were at or below typical climb temps.

Is it a good guess that the reason for this was because the high climb angle was providing inadequate cooling to the oil cooling system which over time in the climb became too hot and exceeded oil temp red line?

What is oil temp red line anyway? What happens beyond that point? What is the max temperature related to?

[gofast]

I agree with previous posts....  Additionally, you might want to check both your oil temp probe, (super easy to do; google it for some cool tricks/techniques), and/or your gauge.  With CHTs that reasonable, you may well have a probe/gauge issue.  

--Jud, A&P/IA

[Shadrach]

If I stay full rich, my EGTs will typically drop below 1200 climbing through ~3K depending on conditions.. in the winter, it's probably closer to ~5K.  

1) My guess (as others have said) is that you got too slow.  Think about the cowl openings, their angle to the relative airflow in a steep climb and how that might affect the flow into the cowl, then think about your oil cooler and it's postion to the relative airlow through the cowl. In a steep climb, the cowl intakes are scooping air out of the relative flow (in addition to propwash), in cruise they are more or less in line with the relative airflow.

2) If I were a betting man I'd bet it more likely that this is not the first time it has happened in your bird or any other multi owner 20yr old Mooney. If I were concerned about anything, it would be the flap attach points on the back of the spar.

3) Muchado about nothing from what you're describing...  

[Shadrach]

Quote: 201er

I couldn't have been LOP. When pulling back on mixture EGTs were going up. It was taking a lot of leaning cause I was up to 7 or 8 thousand feet by that point in a 15+ minute climb. I didn't think the oil temp could get so high when the EGT/CHTs were at or below typical climb temps.

Is it a good guess that the reason for this was because the high climb angle was providing inadequate cooling to the oil cooling system which over time in the climb became too hot and exceeded oil temp red line?

What is oil temp red line anyway? What happens beyond that point? What is the max temperature related to?

[KSMooniac]

Ah, ok. Always learn something new around here. My point was that it was pretty clear to me that I was on the rich side of peak.

[Shadrach]

Quote: KSMooniac

Ah, ok. Always learn something new around here. My point was that it was pretty clear to me that I was on the rich side of peak.

[KSMooniac]

Yup, it was me!

[201er]

This site is messed up. I was trying to say it was interesting to find out about the second rise, etc. Anyway, saw my mech today. He did a complete oil analysis (sniff sniff) and said it's fine. He checked over the flaps and rudder and said they are fine, that I was dumb and shouldn't do that, but that the plane can handle all of that. The main reason I went was to have the fuel vents resealed cause one was leaking fuel again. I was supposed to see the avionics guy for a DME issue I was having but it magically went away on the way there.

[jetdriven]

i dont think the sniff test for oil can measure viscosity, lubricating ability etc.  The redline is there for a reason.

[Alan Fox]

Is my egt wrong , I peak out at 1400 to 1425 , and run 50 degrees rich of peak , 1200 seems awful low , to be any thing but full rich... I know the engine runs well and compressions are all 76 or better ,

[Shadrach]

Quote: n74795

Is my egt wrong , I peak out at 1400 to 1425 , and run 50 degrees rich of peak , 1200 seems awful low , to be any thing but full rich... I know the engine runs well and compressions are all 76 or better ,