Factory Closed Down?

[GDGR]

11 minutes ago, aviatoreb said:

Eps graphite v8 diesel.  400 hp on ~15gph and it can cruise setting on that.  So 265tas cruise mooney.  Cross continent range.

that and a auto land auto pilot.

ill take two please.

 

Awfully nice of you to buy me one, even if we never met. But I think we just became best friends. 

[JT]

It seems that BRS would be possible in the new Ovations and Acclaims. Some UL may have to be sacrificed, and it seems that increasing the UL would be where Mooney should concentrate it's efforts (landing gear, plastic tail?). Mooney could also be more proactive in clarifying the distinct advantage it has over the competition. All that efficiency translates into lots more $ (not to mention time) saved over the competition, and that's never been made clear. For instance, 10 kts of higher speed translates into 20,000 nautical miles traveled over the life of a 2000 hr engine. Same can be said of fuel weight and range, you don't need as much UL because you don't need to carry as much fuel to go the same distance compared to the competition. Also, isn't a faster plane safer just by virtue of the fact that it's in the air less, less exposure? Certainly the airlines can testify to that.  Nothing on the website, or in comparison articles that I can find. It seems to me the new Ovations and Acclaims could afford to give up just a bit of that hard earned airframe refinement to allow at least some people to feel a bit safer. Does anyone know if Kerrville has investigated the possibility of an installation?

 

Jim

 

 

[Urs_Wildermuth]

Hey I certainly did not want to hack people off here, last thing on my mind. I have a strong interest in the factory remaining open and continuing support and I do want the good work at Kerrville to continue hopefully for many years to come. All I said is what I get from my people I coach (free of charge btw and in my spare time) who ask me about airplane ownership.

I fly my C model with pride and I have helped several prospective first time buyers to go the Mooney way, as for their budget and their mission profile the Mooneys were and are the best there is. I have yet to own anything brand new in terms of cars or planes: I currently drive my 3rd only car (since 18 and I am 57 now) and my 2nd plane. With my income, I will never buy a new plane in my life, but I know people who have done that. The guy who sold me my plane in 2009 went onto a SR22 and now a Vision jet.

But having been involved in aviation since 1983, I have seen the concerns and difficulties faced by buyers. And having the wife and family on board before they write a check is something which I regard as of paramount importance, lest either their stint with ownership is rather short before they are forced to resell or even break up of relationships. Seen both. And I know quite a few people who ended up going the BRS way in order to alleviate those fears successfully. Are they all whimps? Maybe in the view of some, similar to those who cave in and buy "boring" cars rather than fun vehicles or who give up riding motorcycles after the upteenth domestic dispute over it's dangers. I have also seen how people change dramatically once they have children, folks with a previously merry go happy attitude turn into ultra conservative and over protective parents who hardly want their kids to ride in a car, let alone in a plane. Again, I know quite a few pilots who stopped flying for this reason.

I stand by what I said, if Mooney wants to compete in this market, and not only Mooney for that matter, they will need to address these concerns. While the M20 is undoubtedly one of the best airplanes ever developped, the design is aged and they will not be able to hang onto this one product forever. One concern I've had for long is also the lack of a entry level model equivalent to the SR20/22 line up. The M10 could have done that but apparently that design was very badly flawed.

I am glad however to hear that the figures circulating on the net are false and the produced number is higher with sales pending. I hope they really will be back to work on Monday.

 

(And yes, but hardly to the point, English is not my first language... my 2nd actually. I grew up and am based in Switzerland, so German is my mothertongue (both German and Swiss German) followed by English, which I speak in my daily life and French and Bulgarian. Thankfully I don't post in the latter two... there would have to be a lot more issues with my spelling then )

[chinoguym20]

A notice was issued last night that the company will remain closed and all employees are not to return on monday 18

[DAVIDWH]

Another thought,

Maybe Mooney wasn't purchased for the sales and profitable cash factor, but rather for the technology and mfg. processes.

They have both now.

Bye, Bye........

[Seth]

18 hours ago, M016576 said:

Let me know the details, Seth- I’m interested too... maybe we can get a group buy going... @RogueOne

PM me for costs.  Mine is already ordered and will be on my Missile flying early next year.

-Seth

[aviatoreb]

From a certification perspective - it would be less trivial to put a BRS in a Mooney than a Cirrus, or retrofit to a C172/182, because of the retractable gear and also because the gear are quite firm with picks rather than cantilever - I would think.  From the gear perspective I would think the gear need to be down since part of the BRS idea is it still hits the ground hard enough that special seats are part of the Cirrus system and I don't know how that would work in a Mooney with our firm gear even if down, and would new seats be needed - if so perhaps highly sprung seats could make up the gap?  And I doubt that the system would be viable with gear up since that would be quite a hard pancake landing indeed leading to spinal compression injuries - perhaps fatal ones - so any BRS system would have to be coupled to gear actuation mechanisms.  Luckily Mooney has pretty quick gear swing probably on the order of the speed of a relatively low altitude BRS deployment and landing.  All this weight aside.  I do think all this could be overcome from an engineering perspective - but I don't know if from a price or certification perspective.

Then the weight thing - that too could be overcome if enough changes are afoot.  For example - I am very impressed with the EPS V8 graphite diesel.  400hp on 15gph and that is accessible at cruise settings nonstop.  That would make a 265TAS Mooney.  So imagine you can actually cruise at 265-270kts? instead of just brag 242 kts at take off setting that no one does.  Or cruise at 225 its at 10,000 ft.  Then the speed differential becomes so extreme that well its more like a TBM kinda speed.  BUT that is not the most important part - at 15gph for that kind of speed - you can either still have your 130 gallon that makes KJFK-KLAX range - or - you can truly carry a small amount of fuel now to make for enough weight to travel with 4 people.

And to lighten up - a new wing - a carbon fiber wing - smoother-fasterr, lighter, faster to build, maybe cheaper?  Build the wing outsourced in a specialty carbon shop.  Maybe even off shore and bring it to Kerrville as a build shop - maybe rent the 747 beluga for the supply chain (haha).  I am just amazed by carbon - I have carbon bike wheels.  I rowed all summer in a carbon rowing scull by fluid design - we are talking a 27'' boat weighing in at 14kg, including hardware - ok it is a paper thin rowing shell but amazingly strong to resist me a heavyweight full power and stiff but still durable - AND easy to build and repair - this very same boat in its history fell of the truck - literally the team didn't tie it down well to the transport truck and it fell off at highway speed and was broken badly.  But being carbon fiber a local craftsmen repaired it so it seems as good as new.  Carbon fiber work is a highly trainable skill.  I would think if they can do a front cowl, then they could do a full wing as yet another bolt on replacement to the factory build.

AND we are all very impressed with the new auto land autopilots.  A much better solution if we are talking pilot incapacitation than a parachute.  Saving the parachute for other extreme scenarios.

I am not selling parachutes as safer but I am fully sold that parachutes sell airplanes and I am sold that if Mooney should survive they need to jump on the BRS train.

Edited November 16, 2019 by aviatoreb

[M016576]

5 hours ago, Seth said:

PM me for costs.  Mine is already ordered and will be on my Missile flying early next year.

-Seth

I tried to PM you and it says that “Seth can’t receive messages”.. maybe too many in your inbox?  Try to PM me... maybe we can get it to work that way!  I’m dying for details- this mod will be AWESOME on a Missile!  40lbs more useful load and shifts the CG aft???  That’s probably almost 1200lbs useful for you...Sign me up!

Edited November 16, 2019 by M016576

[Sixstring2k]

On 11/12/2019 at 8:08 PM, GeorgePerry said:

Sorry but this is emotional hyperbole not backed up by NTSB safety statistics.  Nor is it commensurate with proven business and sales results.  https://gama.aero/facts-and-statistics/quarterly-shipments-and-billings/

Mooney is faster and more efficient than Cirrus SR22, but the Cirrus has outsold the Ovation and Acclaim and Ultra 30-40 to 1.  

I am looking for a plane and the first thing my wife ask is " are we getting the one with the parachute " statistics are one thing but the flying public who are not as informed the chute matters, That's why the cirrus are selling like crazy, the perception or not of added safety. My search for my perfect plan continues with wife looking over my shoulder and hoping for the one with the parachute.

[Urs_Wildermuth]

14 minutes ago, Sixstring2k said:

My search for my perfect plan continues with wife looking over my shoulder and hoping for the one with the parachute.

Has she flown along in any of them? If not, I suggest to do that. Not only in the C series but also other competitors. I've sat in an Ultra and heavens if it's not a nice cabin. Whether it will compete is up to your wive to decide though. The important thing will be that she feels comfortable and safe in the airplane. Otherwise many of your flights will be solo and discussions not pleasant.

[kortopates]

5 hours ago, Urs_Wildermuth said:

Has she flown along in any of them? If not, I suggest to do that. Not only in the C series but also other competitors. I've sat in an Ultra and heavens if it's not a nice cabin. Whether it will compete is up to your wive to decide though. The important thing will be that she feels comfortable and safe in the airplane. Otherwise many of your flights will be solo and discussions not pleasant.

Although the wife's input is a critical part of the solution, in my experience as an instructor and having met many wives the sad thing is the majority lost interest early on. But it's not the plane that turns off the spouse but their pilot husband's flying. Pushing them on long flights to "save time" such that the experience becomes uncomfortable and no longer fun, flying in significant turbulence which is way beyond their comfort level, and giving your spouse the impression that you may have a stronger case of get-there-its rather than their safety and enjoyment as your #1 priority. Especially early on, a pilot has to limit their choice of flying conditions and durations to keep it fun and enjoyable for the inexperienced non-pilot spouse or pretty soon the spouse won't be going. I am not convinced the the cockpit amenities have much to do with it till you've at least kept them interested enough to graduate to long distance flying. 

But I also understand the point about the spouse as a stake-holder partner wanting to have their requirements taken seriously, and that may include a parachute because of the perceived safety enhancements.  Don't argue with their needs but embrace them and above all keep it fun for them. You may get real lucky as I did and watch your partner become an instrument rated pilot that is as enthusiastic about traveling in the plane as you are with the big win-win: two pilots up front can be much safer than one!

Edited November 17, 2019 by kortopates

[MooneyMitch]

24 minutes ago, kortopates said:

Although the wife's input is a critical part of the solution, in my experience as an instructor and having met many wives the sad thing is the majority lost interest early on. Bit it's not the plane that turns off the spouse but their pilot husband's flying. Pushing them on long flights to "save time" such that the experience becomes uncomfortable and no longer fun, flying in significant turbulence which is way beyond their comfort level, and giving your spouse the impression that you may have a stronger case of get-there-its rather than their safety and enjoyment as your #1 priority. Especially early on, a pilot has to limit their choice of flying conditions and durations to keep it fun and enjoyable for the inexperienced non-pilot spouse or pretty soon the spouse won't be going. I am not convinced the the cockpit amenities have much to do with it till you've at least kept their interested enough to graduate to long distance flying. 

But I also understand the point about the spouse as a stake-holder partner wanting to have their requirements taken seriously, and that may include a parachute because of the perceived safety enhancements.  Don't argue with their needs but embrace them and above all keep it fun for them. You may get real lucky as I did and watch your partner become an instrument rated pilot that is as enthusiastic about traveling in the plane as you are with the big win-win: two pilots up front can be much safer than one!

Having a rated pilot spouse often requires excellent cockpit management!! 

[kortopates]

1 minute ago, MooneyMitch said:

Having a rated spouse pilot often requires excellent cockpit management!! 

Indeed it does and the Kings have done a lot to help with this for us all to emulate. Definitely, one needs to divide the responsibilities between Pilot Flying (PF) and Pilot Non-Flying (PNF). Perhaps you don't have to go as far as Martha and John, but I gotta say it's kind of nice when my PNF spouse addressed me as Captain when she let me know I was getting off altitude  (yeah, you also have to learn to communicate so one doesn't come across negatively by sounding like "idiot, your a 100' low or high! - fix it!" - Actually better etiquette is not to even say your high or low but something like "One-Six Thousand two hundred and climbing or diverging" when you both know what the assigned altitude is) 

It's a bit more challenging for a husband wife to fly with the same professionalism as two unmarried pilots but so so worth the effort and rewarding when it works out.

[alextstone]

42 minutes ago, kortopates said:

Although the wife's input is a critical part of the solution, in my experience as an instructor and having met many wives the sad thing is the majority lost interest early on. Bit it's not the plane that turns off the spouse but their pilot husband's flying. Pushing them on long flights to "save time" such that the experience becomes uncomfortable and no longer fun, flying in significant turbulence which is way beyond their comfort level, and giving your spouse the impression that you may have a stronger case of get-there-its rather than their safety and enjoyment as your #1 priority. Especially early on, a pilot has to limit their choice of flying conditions and durations to keep it fun and enjoyable for the inexperienced non-pilot spouse or pretty soon the spouse won't be going. I am not convinced the the cockpit amenities have much to do with it till you've at least kept their interested enough to graduate to long distance flying. 

But I also understand the point about the spouse as a stake-holder partner wanting to have their requirements taken seriously, and that may include a parachute because of the perceived safety enhancements.  Don't argue with their needs but embrace them and above all keep it fun for them. You may get real lucky as I did and watch your partner become an instrument rated pilot that is as enthusiastic about traveling in the plane as you are with the big win-win: two pilots up front can be much safer than one!

So true!  When my wife started flying with me, I paid careful attention to her comfort level, enjoyment, etc... It paid off in an unexpected way... She is taking flying lessons and we are having more fun than ever flying together!

 

Alex

[kortopates]

1 minute ago, alextstone said:

So true!  When my wife started flying with me, I paid careful attention to her comfort level, enjoyment, etc... It paid off in an unexpected way... She is taking flying lessons and we are having more fun than ever flying together!

 

Alex

That is so awesome!!! I wish we all experienced this more!

Now you have even more incentive to get your CFI and become proficient in flying from the right seat!

[alextstone]

That is so awesome!!! I wish we all experienced this more!
Now you have even more incentive to get your CFI and become proficient in flying from the right seat!

Yep, especially since the two teenage boys are itching to learn, too!

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk

[MooneyMitch]

It appears our thread has drifted out to sea ! 

[alextstone]

It appears our thread has drifted out to sea ! 

My apologies... Shutting up now

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk

[MooneyMitch]

3 minutes ago, alextstone said:

My apologies... Shutting up now

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk
 

Oh no, I wasn’t complaining at all.  I was just laughing at this. I added to the drift myself.  I enjoy the conversations. 

[chinoguym20]

Back on task.

A notice was issued last night that the company will remain closed and all employees are not to return on monday 18  
 

 

[MooneyMitch]

1 minute ago, chinoguym20 said:

Back on task.

A notice was issued last night that the company will remain closed and all employees are not to return on monday 18  
 

 

Very, very sad .

[81X]

10 minutes ago, MooneyMitch said:

It appears our thread has drifted out to sea ! 

Yeah, the South China Sea.  

[MooneyMitch]

Regardless of why and how this situation has come to be, I know we all don’t want Mooney to die with this situation. It’s so very near and dear to us all.  We are most passionate of our brand.

We all don’t want the factory workers to suffer either because of this situation, but that appears to be so.

As historically shown, the suits and owners move on, yet through it all, the workers remain loyal as much as they possibly can and still survive.

We hope this resolves in positive way and all can continue.

Go Mooney!

[Seth]

6 hours ago, M016576 said:

I tried to PM you and it says that “Seth can’t receive messages”.. maybe too many in your inbox?  Try to PM me... maybe we can get it to work that way!  I’m dying for details- this mod will be AWESOME on a Missile!  40lbs more useful load and shifts the CG aft???  That’s probably almost 1200lbs useful for you...Sign me up!

Will do and yes I need to delete some old messages

[ryoder]

Yeah it is sad. My first airplane.  The C is in great hands but sad to see a great brand go this way.