Increasing risk to get more flying time

[bob865]

I only have one fear of night flying....inadvertant flight into IMC.  Night VFR is different, but I personally I don't think it's any harder than day VFR; just different.  My fear of night VFR is not seeing the cloud up ahead until I'm inside of it and have no ground reference any more.  Maybe I'm just more conforatable becuase I did most of my private in the dark for the same reasons OP is asking about flying at night, it was the only way I could find the time.

Beyond that, it does have it's challenges.  For example instruments, no matter how well illuminated, are harder to see at night.  Same with paper charts or anything else in the plane.  Identifying waypoints is more difficult at night. And depending on the location, even the airport can be hard to find.  My home airport is notoriously hard to find at night.  Fun story on one of my first flights after getting my license I was coming back home from Athens, GA.  My home drome has 3 and sometime 4 airports you can identify the beacons on from a distance, so it's a matter of making sure you pick the right one to fly toward.  Flying in I found all the blinking lights and picked the one I was sure was GMU.  After flying toward it a while the light starting to look funny.  Strange.  I start looking at my GPS and there isn't an airport in the direction I'm headed. Even stranger.  What is happening?  The hospital  just west of town (less than 5 miles away) has a helipad, (white green amber).  At a distance and without fixating on it, the amber wasn't easy to distinguish between white, but off enought that it didn't feel right.  I would see the amber swing around and think it was something else on the the ground like a car or street light behind a tree and then see the white and think, "now I have the airport." I was flying right to it going to try to put my little cherokee on the top of the hospital.  Once I figured that out, I lined up on the right airport and all was good.

[MIm20c]

So many good responses.  Great point about the hours put in at work before flying. I also feel keeping everyone happy when I get home can be pretty draining as well. 
 

To be honest about a year ago we had an internal engine part fail that did a massive amount of damage but had an uneventful landing. Scanning the crash database provided examples of other aircraft (with identical failures) that were not so lucky.  I guess I need to ban myself from browsing crash talk...

[gsxrpilot]

I love flying my Mooney at night. My longest night flight was from Las Vegas to Austin. I departed after sundown and landed in Austin about 1:30am. It's certainly higher risk than flying in the day. But then flying a Mooney is a much higher risk than flying on the airlines. There are lots of ways to die. So I don't worry about this one.

[RLCarter]

7 hours ago, bob865 said:

I only have one fear of night flying....inadvertant flight into IMC. 

And this gets a bunch, day & night....easy fix is get your IR and even then it will get your attention, next best thing is practice under the hood with a safety pilot or a CFI. Most private pilots do not do any hood work beyond what is required during their primary training and maybe during their flight reviews. A third of my early time was at night but I did stay fairly proficient on my hood work which made my IR training (flying anyway) go fairly smooth. To me there is no better flight than at night, cooler temps, easier to spot planes in the distance and awesome lights. In my part of the country (deep s. texas) on a clear night we can see the glow of San Antonio lights 150nm out at altitude... or watch the harvest moon rise over the Gulf of Mexico. I think every pilot has some fear of becoming lawn dart but personally for me the fear of not living while alive out weighs the fear of dying

[ArtVandelay]

While flying at night has obvious risks if you lose your engine, it also can reduce weather risks here in southeast, clear smooth skies vs dancing with thunderstorms.


Tom

[lithium366]

On 10/9/2019 at 7:27 AM, carusoam said:

Let’s discuss methods of lowering risk...

Do you continuously calculate glide distance to your nearest airport?

Do you select to cruise at high altitudes?

 

These came to mind while writing a response to somebody else’s gliding challenge... 

I got to watch glide rings on ForeFlight while cruising around in somebody else’s plane...

Have you seen all the EFBs including glide rings in their apps?

Getting it set up properly will work wonders.

Best regards,

-a-

Interestingly enough these rings appear to be perfectly rounded for me in flat areas with high wind while they must be ovals with the airplane closer to one of the oval ends.

[carusoam]

They give the jagees in mountainous areas... adjusting for the variation of altitude...

The wind speed will have to be moving quite quickly to register...

a lot will be depending on your screen size...

I only got to fly with the ForeFlight rings once... so I don’t have many observations with it.

Best regards,

-a-

[carusoam]

Interesting point...

observing the glide rings in cruise doesn’t  really give you a feeling what happens within the first minute of engine out...

as your speed quickly comes back to about 90... and the Vsi starts to descend...

Sounds like a good thing to put in the practice schedule...  

Best regards,

-a-

[lithium366]

2 hours ago, carusoam said:

They give the jagees in mountainous areas... adjusting for the variation of altitude...

The wind speed will have to be moving quite quickly to register...

a lot will be depending on your screen size...

I only got to fly with the ForeFlight rings once... so I don’t have many observations with it.

Best regards,

-a-

I have a big screen

[Ibra]

I can't find an easy way to build time appart from few days tripin good weather, I tried to build hours by squeezing few at sunset/night after work, local flights in winter weekends with weather but they rarely accumulate that much, it takes 3 months to get as much as flying in a single 3 days trip 

Obviously, if flying at night is your only option now do it but not for very long (one would get one or two engine stops in a lifetime, my first one and hopefuly the last was stupid fuel starvation)

[Raptor05121]

I do have a good percentage of night time in my books. I personally love it. Smooth air, different scenery. You can feel every ounce of the aircraft and every pulse of the engine. Getting IFR approaches are easier with the NAS much quieter (read: safety pilot on CAVU nights)

But I would also warn, if you don't have your IFR, either limit your night flying or do a VERY careful weather breif before you go up. Maybe as time passes I'll share a story but lets just say my most recent flight at night graduated me from "invincible pilot" into "careful pilot".

My minimums to night flying are limited to only over areas I know from daytime flying (ie no pattern pounding when out of home turf), brief and plan on runway departures that have the least risk if an off-airport landing is needed after takeoff, and higher-than-normal cruise altitudes, usually along major thoroughfares.

[SantosDumont]

The last night flight I did was returning to Vegas from San Diego. I routed out to TRM to get fuel, then climbed up into the big black nothing.  I circled over the airport to gain altitude, because couldn’t see the mountains in the horizon.  Fought a monster headwind, I was doing 85-90 kts ground speed.  I thought maybe something was wrong with my engine. The only thing I could see was blackness.  I was basically flying by instruments because I couldn’t tell what was up or down.  That’s when I realized I never wanted to do that again.  I never want to have an emergency and my only option be falling into a void.  

[Jerry 5TJ]

Night flight — File IFR. You likely won’t have a good visual horizon at all times anyway. 

Practice occasionally a gliding exercise where you use the GPS to fly direct to the nearest airport and, still using the moving map to guide you, circle down to the airport.  

If there are no airports within glide range, not good, but how about using the terrain mapping to at least pick a flat area.  

[steingar]

I haven't flown much at night, but I certainly haven't had any problems at all doing so.  Where I live there are lots of ground lights, so getting a good horizon is no big deal.  I am always careful about the weather rI launch into, it is easy to blunder into weather.  I've never found doing a 180 degree turn any more difficult at might than during the daytime, though.

[thinwing]

On 10/8/2019 at 3:55 PM, MIm20c said:

I find myself with very little free time during the week. Between two young kids, work, home projects, and other responsibilities the ability to get away for a few hours is difficult. I really want to build some more time/experience and earn my commercial but the only solution I can come up with is to push into the night. 
 

I really enjoy how peaceful it is at night but I’m well aware of the additional risk that it brings.  Anyone else find the only free time available is from 8-12 every night?  Suggestions to mitigate risk? 

Hi there,my immediate thoughts after reading your situation ,was to avoid night flying and instead try some creative time management to at least take advantage of what weather and daylight provide you.At the very least ,for this time of year.This isn’t ,what you want to hear ,but with a young family dependent on you ,low time pilot (assuming less than 250 hrs required for commercial)Assuming no instrument or very low time in actual,flying older C model with average equipment,late fall into winter In Northern location,fatigue from long work day,young family etc,night time preflight increasing chance of missing something,airports with closed night time towers and weather reporting,ability to see and avoid ground fogs as the temp decreases,loss of situational awareness occurring for the best of pilots.All pushing the risk factors to JFK jr level.Notice ,I have not mentioned the the loss of an engine ....others have pointed out how peaceful flying over cities at night...LA basin is so well lit up ,an emergency landing is practically a daytime visual affair.Others didn’t mention the time of year,summer with partial daylight or twilight at 930 pm?Lastly,you dont mention why you are pursuing a Commercial in the first place.Job transition to flying job?At 250 hrs,the only jobs I can think of are CFI,glider towing,banner towing,photography,ag work (Maybe)seasonal air taxi...If is the long term aircarrier requiring an ATP...than what’s the rush?At that ,level ,you are embarked on a multi year mission so that imo the risk to reward ratio for running night time ops in fall/winter just to build time is not worth the risk.Either way you decide ,fly safe

 

 

 

[steingar]

Of course, the other thing that should have occurred to me far sooner is if the OP hasn't time to train will he have time to maintain currency?

[MIm20c]

15 hours ago, Raptor05121 said:

But I would also warn, if you don't have your IFR, either limit your night flying or do a VERY careful weather breif before you go up. Maybe as time passes I'll share a story but lets just say my most recent flight at night graduated me from "invincible pilot" into "careful pilot".

 

12 hours ago, SantosDumont said:

The last night flight I did .... couldn’t tell what was up or down.  That’s when I realized I never wanted to do that again.  I never want to have an emergency and my only option be falling into a void.  

The above two examples ring home where pilots clearly remember the additional risk they accepted for those night flights. 
 

I have an above average risk tolerance for solo flight but an extremely low tolerance of risk if my family is traveling with me. I have been trying to fly 100 hours a year. I’d like to up that to 300 if I could.  To be a better pilot and possibly move to a different aircraft. 

[Jerry 5TJ]

I find I’ve started to fly more at night in recent years after a 25 year period in which I flew little after dark.  
 

Factors: The plane I’m flying now is more reliable and more capable, I have a few thousand more hours and I can put off a flight easily as I’m retired and the kids are grown.  
 

A plug for the MMOPA-FRAT tool, available from the Apple app store free.  If you’re in some doubt about a go/no go call the FRAT will at the least help organize your thoughts about the risks inherent in the proposed flight.  

[aviatoreb]

On 10/8/2019 at 6:55 PM, MIm20c said:

I find myself with very little free time during the week. Between two young kids, work, home projects, and other responsibilities the ability to get away for a few hours is difficult. I really want to build some more time/experience and earn my commercial but the only solution I can come up with is to push into the night. 
 

I really enjoy how peaceful it is at night but I’m well aware of the additional risk that it brings.  Anyone else find the only free time available is from 8-12 every night?  Suggestions to mitigate risk? 

Well there are two big ways to lower risk of flying a single engine airplane at night.

1) Choose a full moon.  On the right full moon its almost false to call it night.  Especially up here in the winter when the ground is covered in snow - which really shines in the moonshine.

2) fly the pattern.  You are always in gliding range that way....other than that awkward first few hundred feet where you need to know what is straight ahead.

[ArtVandelay]

If you have to ditch at night, and no airport is in range, I would look for a lake on your gps map display:

With gear up, good chance of a smooth landing.

Power lines rarely are found going over lakes.

Almost no chance of fire caused by the crash.

This assumes you are a good swimmer or have a life vest.

 

 

Tom

 

[jetdriven]

On 10/9/2019 at 9:42 AM, Austintatious said:

Well, it is no secret that I am very against SE night flying.  I am a professional pilot who has been in a SE crash... had the accident happened at night (the departure was planned for night, but I talked the passengers into moving the departure up) I would VERY likely be dead.  When the engine stopped making power right after takeoff, the only saving grace for me was the fact that I could see where to put her down. I had to make a DRASTIC maneuver to avoid power lines by diving UNDER them, which I could not have seen in the dark.

 

If I was you, I would be looking for alternatives.  Such as flying on the weekends or EARLY in the morning Before work.  But I am not you and have a horrible experience in my head that screams flying at night with one engine is a really bad idea.   We all have to make our own judgements on what level of risk we are willing to accept.  My mooney is for fun and personal travel.  I have absolutely no reason to increase my risk factor when I fly it.  

 

Wow, I did not hear about this one. What was the cause of the engine failure?

[carusoam]

7 hours ago, Jerry 5TJ said:

Factors:

The plane I’m flying now is more reliable and more capable,

I have a few thousand more hours

and I can put off a flight easily as

I’m retired and the kids are grown.  
 

I parsed Jerry’s input because part of risk management is identifying how strong the risk is for you...

If you have kids... your ability to absorb risk has added challenges...

Gobs of insurance may be the answer... make sure you clearly understand what you have, and your kids and family are covered for anything that happens to you...

Nobody should get rich based on your demise... but make sure they aren’t left in the hole when disaster arrives and meets you.
 

Also... the idea of landing in the water is a good seasonal idea... If you land in the Hudson River just outside of NYC... you will probably get out of the water before the plane sinks... anywhere else...expect the float time of your new boat to be extremely limited...

water temps below 50°F are like knowing your TOUC when you have run out of O2 at altitude...

 

trying to say... Go forward with your plan!   ...and plan for something to break, plan on getting to the ground... and remember what we learned from DanM20C... you have to survive long enough to make some friends... a friend with a phone is always a good friend...

Plan your flights... run them in daylight... then in the dark...

some parts of the country are endless flatlands...

the East Coast is endless beaches.... with an airport every 20miles...

PP thinking out loud...

By the time I got better equipment, and got kids out of the house... I was Retired too...

You gotta do what you gotta do...

PP thoughts only, not a CFI or mechanic...

Best regards,

-a-

[Marauder]

I think risk tolerance is a very personal topic and should be set by the individual based on his or her own set of criteria. When I first started flying there were a lot of old time pilots that lived by the Yeager adage "It's the man, not the machine". I remember canceling an IFR flight right after getting my IFR ticket and having one of them say to me, if you can't handle 500 foot ceilings, you shouldn't be flying. Ironically, the same guy ended up running out of fuel and flipped his Pitts upside down on a snow covered field.

My risk tolerance is balanced between a healthy respect for the factors involved and the experience I have. Sometimes it IS the machine and not the man...

[DXB]

34 minutes ago, Marauder said:

I remember canceling an IFR flight right after getting my IFR ticket and having one of them say to me, if you can't handle 500 foot ceilings, you shouldn't be flying. Ironically, the same guy ended up running out of fuel and flipped his Pitts upside down on a snow covered field.

The guys who go around saying crap like that are usually the same folks who have no insight into their own vulnerability and limitations.  This attitude was once pervasive in my own profession, but luckily much of it has been beaten out of us. Luckily I don't run into it much in aviation, but it is easy to recognize as a red flag when I do.  

[aviatoreb]

49 minutes ago, Marauder said:

I think risk tolerance is a very personal topic and should be set by the individual based on his or her own set of criteria. When I first started flying there were a lot of old time pilots that lived by the Yeager adage "It's the man, not the machine". I remember canceling an IFR flight right after getting my IFR ticket and having one of them say to me, if you can't handle 500 foot ceilings, you shouldn't be flying. Ironically, the same guy ended up running out of fuel and flipped his Pitts upside down on a snow covered field.

I agree - partly - with the "if you can't handle 500 foot ceilings, you shouldn't be flying" concept.  The part I agree with is you should be able to handle with it.  The part I do not agree with is you should not necessarily choose to launch into that.

I personally have IFR limits that are essentially marginal vfr below.  So I want to be flying over 1000ft ceilings the whole way and I figure it is safer to be flying higher (icing and all also considered as appropriate) than lower.  But in case of a failure, 1000ft would be at least some margin I would hope of having even a short bit of time to pick out the crash site details when breaking out - or anyway ease the stress a tad if trying to glide to an airport and break out and do something useful if I could glide toward an airport from a high cruise altitude.

BTW, I have several times used this 1000ft rule only to arrive and find that the destination was lower than forecast.  Anyway, if it was forecast to 1000, or say 2000 and I am flying ifr but it drops lower than forecast, it rarely is dropping to 200 or less, or anyway more rarely than a 200ft ceiling forecast will be dropping to below mins.