Transition to ICAO flight plans

[Skates97]

15 hours ago, gsengle said:

Is your stratux aircraft installed equipment or portable? Portable doesn’t count I don’t think.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

Not talking about equipment reported in ICAO, just configuring so the Stratux picks up what I am looking for.

14 hours ago, Bob - S50 said:

Since your Stratux can pick up both, my personal opinion is that you should have the 335 set to show you can receive both UAT and 1090.  That will prevent you from getting ADS-B AND ADS-R reports on the same traffic.  With it set to show you can receive both, the only traffic the ground system should send you would be TIS-B (non-ADS-B) traffic.

This was what I was thinking, and how the avionics guy that helped me set up the GTX 335 and did the transponder check suggested it be configured.

14 hours ago, PT20J said:

The GTX 335 is 1090ES ADS-B Out only

True, the Stratux just feeds traffic and weather to the tablets.

1 hour ago, Bob - S50 said:

No.  I'm saying if he configures his GTX335 to report exactly what it is, 1090 OUT only, the system will not send him reports.  If he configures it to say he has IN capability, which he has with his Stratux, he'll get traffic.

But I now agree that he should probably file EB1.  That tells the system he is ADS-B compliant.

Yes, EB1. The setting in the GTX 335 is not for filing purposes, just to ensure the information is being broadcast so my Stratux will pick it up.

Thank you all for the comments, they cleared up my confusion.

[Bob - S50]

34 minutes ago, 1964-M20E said:

Well heck I fur sure say we should just keep the old flight plan system when flying here in the good ole US of A.

Seriously I do think for flights inside the US (international is different) we should be able to continue to use the standard flight plan that has been in use for many years, but that plane has already taken off.

I tried ICAO plans a while back and had issues.  I went back to the ICAO plans in the last few weeks especially when using Leidos on my phone it forced me to go ICAO.  Seems issues have gone asway especially leaving or going to an airport that dis not start with a K.

 

 

I've been using ICAO through 1-800-wxbrief for several years now.  One thing you have to do is remember to include DCT when flying direct from waypoint to waypoint.  For example:

DCT VPPMR DCT BONNR DCT YKM v4 BOI DCT  (for direct to destination)

I ran into two issues that I figured out.

1.  Airport codes that don't start with a K.  I knew to put ZZZZ in the departure or destination locations.  However, when I tried to follow the guidance and put KS50 in the Other block like this:  DEP/KS50, the system would choke.  I figured out that I should not include the K so it needed to be DEP/S50.  I still do that and it still works.  They may have fixed that issue so you can add the K but I haven't tried it.

2.  SID's.  At my home drone we have the BLAKO departure.  When I looked at the title on the departure it was listed as BLAKO1.BLAKO so I tried entering that in my route of flight.  Nope.  Choke.  I figured out to use a space instead of the period so it would be something like this:  BLAKO1 BLAKO DCT VPPMR DCT.....

I also filled everything out the way I wanted it including departing from my home airport, a common cruise altitude, common cruise speed, and a destination that I picked at random.  I put in a short route too.  Once I had it all set I saved it as a favorite.  Now I just load the favorite, change whatever is different and I'm ready to brief and file.

[gsxrpilot]

I've been using ICAO plans for awhile as well. But I was completely oblivious to any of these differences. Evidently ForeFlight knows so I don't have to. 

[jaylw314]

48 minutes ago, 1964-M20E said:

Well heck I fur sure say we should just keep the old flight plan system when flying here in the good ole US of A.

Seriously I do think for flights inside the US (international is different) we should be able to continue to use the standard flight plan that has been in use for many years, but that plane has already taken off.

I tried ICAO plans a while back and had issues.  I went back to the ICAO plans in the last few weeks especially when using Leidos on my phone it forced me to go ICAO.  Seems issues have gone asway especially leaving or going to an airport that dis not start with a K.

I don't feel too bad adopting some ICAO rules.  After all, we still get to use English as the aviation language worldwide.  I think that's a pretty good trade-off for flight plans and "line up and wait" 

[PT20J]

48 minutes ago, 1964-M20E said:

Well heck I fur sure say we should just keep the old flight plan system when flying here in the good ole US of A.

That might work for VFR (although technology is rendering VFR flight plans obsolete) but for IFR there is additional information in the ICAO format that ATC needs to give you the best routings/service today. This information will be critical once navigation migrates to PBN. 

[jaylw314]

13 minutes ago, Bob - S50 said:

I've been using ICAO through 1-800-wxbrief for several years now.  One thing you have to do is remember to include DCT when flying direct from waypoint to waypoint.  For example:

DCT VPPMR DCT BONNR DCT YKM v4 BOI DCT  (for direct to destination)

I ran into two issues that I figured out.

1.  Airport codes that don't start with a K.  I knew to put ZZZZ in the departure or destination locations.  However, when I tried to follow the guidance and put KS50 in the Other block like this:  DEP/KS50, the system would choke.  I figured out that I should not include the K so it needed to be DEP/S50.  I still do that and it still works.  They may have fixed that issue so you can add the K but I haven't tried it.

2.  SID's.  At my home drone we have the BLAKO departure.  When I looked at the title on the departure it was listed as BLAKO1.BLAKO so I tried entering that in my route of flight.  Nope.  Choke.  I figured out to use a space instead of the period so it would be something like this:  BLAKO1 BLAKO DCT VPPMR DCT.....

I also filled everything out the way I wanted it including departing from my home airport, a common cruise altitude, common cruise speed, and a destination that I picked at random.  I put in a short route too.  Once I had it all set I saved it as a favorite.  Now I just load the favorite, change whatever is different and I'm ready to brief and file.

Nice tips.  The only thing I'd say is that you don't seem to need the DCT between waypoints for routing on the Leidos website.  If you look at your filed plan later, the computer automatically enters DCT between waypoints, but you don't actually have to put them in yourself 

I should also point out that all the gotchas and nitpicky details on the ICAO flight plan, including explanations of all the equipage is in painstaking detail in section 5-1-9 of the AIM

 

[skydvrboy]

5 hours ago, Yooper Rocketman said:

BTW,  this was a great topic to bring up reminding everyone to check how they are filing,

It looks like I have my homework assignment. 

[eman1200]

can someone check my work?  gtn650, gtx345

Z - OTHER
NAV/SBAS 
CODE/MyHexCode
SUR/260B

 

 

[ArtVandelay]

This bit me today, #$&*# Garmin Pilot givens an error message because I did set it up to file an ICAO format. Hey GP, why not use the new format and give me a warning. I of course was in a hurry and took some trouble finding the right switch.


Tom

[eman1200]

12 minutes ago, ArtVandelay said:

This bit me today, #$&*# Garmin Pilot givens an error message because I did set it up to file an ICAO format. Hey GP, why not use the new format and give me a warning. I of course was in a hurry and took some trouble finding the right switch.


Tom

once I added the correct 'other' switches, the error cleared in garmin pilot.  the error being MY error, not GPs.

[EricJ]

On 8/28/2019 at 9:42 PM, gsxrpilot said:

I've learned a few new tricks living here in Denver. 

1. The flight levels are not as far away and therefore used more regularly.
2. That requires IFR.
3. File the IFR flight plan on ForeFlight. (I knew that part already)
4. When calling Ground tell them you DON"T want to open your flight plan. Rather you'll open it with Center if needed.
5. Take off VFR and get clear of the Bravo and up to 17,500 or so using your own routing.
6. Contact Center and open the IFR flight plan and climb into the flight levels. 

This saves being given a long circuitous departure and a slow step climb to altitude. Once at 17,500, the exchange with Center was one request, and an immediate response of...

"Cleared too... climb and maintain FL2?0"

There's a thing called a "composite" flight plan where you formally file part of it ifr and part of it vfr.   I've never done it but it is tempting since around here if you want to depart ifr it can often mean long holds at the end of the runway for your release.   Your method looks interesting.

http://www.faraim.org/aim/aim-4-03-14-275.html

[Bob - S50]

3 hours ago, eman1200 said:

can someone check my work?  gtn650, gtx345

Z - OTHER
NAV/SBAS 
CODE/MyHexCode
SUR/260B

 

 

Not sure but here is my take:

I assume you have actual DME for the D in equipment codes and whatever is special that is needed for SBAS for the Z code.

Surveillance looks good.

For PBN codes:

I'd leave off the A1.  RNAV 10 applies to oceanic navigation and according the AFMS I have, it only applies if you have dual units.  Maybe you do.

Same with L1 - RNP 4

I believe the O2 and S1 apply to Advanced RNP which, again according to my AFMS, the GTN does not qualify for because it only has 3 of the 6 required features.  Besides, at this time there are zero RNP approaches in the US that are not AR (Authorization Required) which we definitely cannot fly.

So that would leave you with B2C2D2.

I personally just use C2D2

[eman1200]

Not sure but here is my take:
I assume you have actual DME for the D in equipment codes and whatever is special that is needed for SBAS for the Z code.
Surveillance looks good.
For PBN codes:
I'd leave off the A1.  RNAV 10 applies to oceanic navigation and according the AFMS I have, it only applies if you have dual units.  Maybe you do.
Same with L1 - RNP 4
I believe the O2 and S1 apply to Advanced RNP which, again according to my AFMS, the GTN does not qualify for because it only has 3 of the 6 required features.  Besides, at this time there are zero RNP approaches in the US that are not AR (Authorization Required) which we definitely cannot fly.
So that would leave you with B2C2D2.
I personally just use C2D2

Thanks. SBAS is just used to specify that you’re WAAS enabled. I’ll double check on the PBN codes.

[midlifeflyer]

Remember that we don't have to go crazy. Many of the fields and data which may mean something in other ICAO countries aren't necessary to either file or get the ATC servuces we want in the US. The many of us who have received a direct to an airport when filing /U should realize this almost intuitively. There are a few articles on minimalist filing, including John Collins' one for ForeFlight. 

FWIW, I have gleaned my own minimalist list from the articles:

 

Most Simple is SGBR

Everything in the US pretty much covered by SGBR PBN/C2D2S1

 

S = Standard (VOR, ILS,  VHF radio)

G = GPS

B = GPS APV capability

R = PBN; requires the "PBN/" entry in the "Other Info" field

 

PBN/

C2 = GNS RNAV 2 capability

D2 = RNAV 1 capability

S1 = RNP approach capability

 

Edited August 31, 2019 by midlifeflyer

[0TreeLemur]

I was looking at this yesterday- explains ICAO equipment and PBN codes if you have a GPS installed.

https://bruceair.wordpress.com/tag/icao-equipment-codes/

The switch to ICAO occurred on August 27th.  That day I filed an IFR flight plan in the air with flight service.  I didn't notice any difference from before...

[Bob - S50]

3 hours ago, eman1200 said:

 

Thanks. SBAS is just used to specify that you’re WAAS enabled. I’ll double check on the PBN codes.

After doing a little more reading it looks like I could probably stand to change my codes a bit.  However, practically speaking, it won't matter to ATC because the US currently doesn't care about most of this stuff.

It looks like I could probably add the S1 and O2 codes you were going to use.

I did find something about the Z and NAV/ codes too.  Can't remember where but it basically said you use that combination if you want to specify different PBN codes for different phases of flight.

[Bob - S50]

4 hours ago, eman1200 said:

 

Thanks. SBAS is just used to specify that you’re WAAS enabled. I’ll double check on the PBN codes.

 

Just found something else that might help:

Garmin Pilot ICAO Code entry

[PT20J]

I wonder if we aren’t making this more difficult than it needs to be. With the domestic form, we just entered the equipment codes for whatever equipment we had installed in the airplane. It’s really the same with the ICAO form. It seems the difficulty arises from the fact that modern navigation and surveillance equipment has a lot of capabilities, the details of of which may not be obvious to us because we really don’t need to know about them to operate the equipment. However, the capabilities are described in the required AFM supplement, and a bit of study will reveal the them and thus which ICAO flight plan codes to enter. 

Skip

[Bob - S50]

10 minutes ago, PT20J said:

I wonder if we aren’t making this more difficult than it needs to be. With the domestic form, we just entered the equipment codes for whatever equipment we had installed in the airplane. It’s really the same with the ICAO form. It seems the difficulty arises from the fact that modern navigation and surveillance equipment has a lot of capabilities, the details of of which may not be obvious to us because we really don’t need to know about them to operate the equipment. However, the capabilities are described in the required AFM supplement, and a bit of study will reveal the them and thus which ICAO flight plan codes to enter. 

Skip

At this point I don't think it's critical that we get it right because the FAA doesn't care about most of it.  That may not be true in the future.

While the AFMS describes the GNS/GTN capabilities, it doesn't tell us which PBN codes to enter.  And the government doesn't help much either because their descriptions of what the codes mean and when to use them is either incomplete or not expressed in terms that are obvious to pilots.

[PT20J]

5 hours ago, Bob - S50 said:

At this point I don't think it's critical that we get it right because the FAA doesn't care about most of it.  That may not be true in the future.

While the AFMS describes the GNS/GTN capabilities, it doesn't tell us which PBN codes to enter.  And the government doesn't help much either because their descriptions of what the codes mean and when to use them is either incomplete or not expressed in terms that are obvious to pilots.

My point is that it is confusing to understand all the ICAO codes and try to figure out which apply. It is much easier to understand your equipment capabilities first and then figure out which codes apply. For example, from the AFMS and the AIM, a GNS 430W is PBN/C2D2O2S1. The only piece of information that isn't explicitly stated is that RNP terminal and arrival procedures utilize RNP 1, but since GPS terminal mode is 1nm, that seems pretty obvious. I'm not saying that the FAA could not have made this easier; I'm just suggesting what I found to be the easiest way to figure it out.

[Bob - S50]

3 hours ago, PT20J said:

My point is that it is confusing to understand all the ICAO codes and try to figure out which apply. It is much easier to understand your equipment capabilities first and then figure out which codes apply. For example, from the AFMS and the AIM, a GNS 430W is PBN/C2D2O2S1. The only piece of information that isn't explicitly stated is that RNP terminal and arrival procedures utilize RNP 1, but since GPS terminal mode is 1nm, that seems pretty obvious. I'm not saying that the FAA could not have made this easier; I'm just suggesting what I found to be the easiest way to figure it out.

I completely agree that it is confusing.  Neither the AFMS nor the FAA do a good job of explaining it.

For example, you would think we would be good for a code of A1 which is RNAV 10 (RNP 10).  They don't make it obvious that this code only applies to oceanic navigation.  Same with RNP 4 (L).

And if you are good for RNAV 1 (D2) do you need to specify that you are also good for RNAV 5 (B2) and RNAV 2 (C2)?  If you are accurate to 1 mile, logic dictates you are also good to 2 miles and 5 miles.

And what's the difference between D2 and O2.  Both are GNSS based and accurate to 1 mile?

Pretty crappy job of helping us figure out the proper codes.

[PT20J]

54 minutes ago, Bob - S50 said:

I completely agree that it is confusing.  Neither the AFMS nor the FAA do a good job of explaining it.

For example, you would think we would be good for a code of A1 which is RNAV 10 (RNP 10).  They don't make it obvious that this code only applies to oceanic navigation.  Same with RNP 4 (L).

And if you are good for RNAV 1 (D2) do you need to specify that you are also good for RNAV 5 (B2) and RNAV 2 (C2)?  If you are accurate to 1 mile, logic dictates you are also good to 2 miles and 5 miles.

And what's the difference between D2 and O2.  Both are GNSS based and accurate to 1 mile?

Pretty crappy job of helping us figure out the proper codes.

Suggest you read AIM 1-2. Your questions are answered there. 

[Bob - S50]

15 minutes ago, PT20J said:

Suggest you read AIM 1-2. Your questions are answered there. 

With all due respect, I've read that several times and it still isn't clear.

The difference between plain RNAV and RNP appears to be onboard monitoring and alerting. (1-2-1.a)

Both RNAV and RNP require being in the specified range 95% of the time. (1-2-1.a)

Figure 1-2-1 gives the same description for RNP 1, RNP APCH, and RNAV 1.  En-route and terminal navigation applications.

It says that RNP 1 and RNAV 1 are different, and that being RNP1 capable does not mean you automatically meet requirements for RNP 2. (1-2-2.a)  Why not?

What's the practical difference between RNAV 1 GNSS (D2) and RNP 1 GNSS (O2) as far as operations go?  If you can always be within RNP 1 GNSS limits, when would you not be able to meet RNP 2 GNSS limits?  And for that matter, there isn't even a code for RNP 2.   And how would you ever be RNP 1 capable but not RNAV 1 capable?  RNAV 1 and not RNP1 sure, but not the other way around.

RNP approach procedures are labeled RNAV  (GPS) not RNP (GPS) (1-2-2.b.(a).(1))

Logically, it seems to me, we should be able to list simply O2S1 and be good.  But apparently not.

[PT20J]

47 minutes ago, Bob - S50 said:

With all due respect, I've read that several times and it still isn't clear.

The difference between plain RNAV and RNP appears to be onboard monitoring and alerting. (1-2-1.a)

Both RNAV and RNP require being in the specified range 95% of the time. (1-2-1.a)

Figure 1-2-1 gives the same description for RNP 1, RNP APCH, and RNAV 1.  En-route and terminal navigation applications.

It says that RNP 1 and RNAV 1 are different, and that being RNP1 capable does not mean you automatically meet requirements for RNP 2. (1-2-2.a)  Why not?

What's the practical difference between RNAV 1 GNSS (D2) and RNP 1 GNSS (O2) as far as operations go?  If you can always be within RNP 1 GNSS limits, when would you not be able to meet RNP 2 GNSS limits?  And for that matter, there isn't even a code for RNP 2.   And how would you ever be RNP 1 capable but not RNAV 1 capable?  RNAV 1 and not RNP1 sure, but not the other way around.

RNP approach procedures are labeled RNAV  (GPS) not RNP (GPS) (1-2-2.b.(a).(1))

Logically, it seems to me, we should be able to list simply O2S1 and be good.  But apparently not.

Most of your questions seem to start with "why."  I don't know why. Maybe someone at ICAO knows why. I just know that if you follow the AFMS and AIM cookbook style, you get the correct result. As several (including me) have noted, it doesn't really seem to matter today in the US whether you enter the PBN/ or CODE/ information. Maybe some with more experience flying IFR around the country will chime in and say that they get RNAV DPs and T-routes automatically when they enter this stuff (I've been off flying seaplanes VFR the last few years).

Remember this discussion is only about filling out the ICAO flight plan form. Operationally, you don't need to know any of this stuff. One smart thing that the FAA did was mandate that the only procedures that can show up in a GPS navigator database are the ones it has the approvals to fly. So the rule is that if you can load it, you can fly it. If you find a plate that isn't in the database, it's because the navigator doesn't have approval for it. And, once airborne, the controllers don't care what you've filed -- you are free to negotiate whatever you want.

Skip

 

[Bob - S50]

11 hours ago, PT20J said:

Most of your questions seem to start with "why."  I don't know why. Maybe someone at ICAO knows why. I just know that if you follow the AFMS and AIM cookbook style, you get the correct result. As several (including me) have noted, it doesn't really seem to matter today in the US whether you enter the PBN/ or CODE/ information. Maybe some with more experience flying IFR around the country will chime in and say that they get RNAV DPs and T-routes automatically when they enter this stuff (I've been off flying seaplanes VFR the last few years).

Remember this discussion is only about filling out the ICAO flight plan form. Operationally, you don't need to know any of this stuff. One smart thing that the FAA did was mandate that the only procedures that can show up in a GPS navigator database are the ones it has the approvals to fly. So the rule is that if you can load it, you can fly it. If you find a plate that isn't in the database, it's because the navigator doesn't have approval for it. And, once airborne, the controllers don't care what you've filed -- you are free to negotiate whatever you want.

Skip

 

Just to add a bit more info to the pile...

I asked a few questions on Beechtalk and got some answers from a very knowledgeable person.  Here is his bottom line:

"If your flying in the US, there are a handful of SIDs that require RNP 1. SIDs that utilize RF legs are designated as requiring RNP 1. I only know of one such SID in the US at Atlanta (ZELAN4) and it is Turbojet only, but there may be more. If your aircraft is not approved for RF legs, you won't encounter a need for O2. I recommend coding B2, C2, and D2, but as a practical matter D2 would suffice. There is no use in the US for specifying S1, S2, or Z and NAV/SBAS. It won't do anything other than make your flight plan longer. ERAM will ignore SBAS and S1/S2. Also ERAM does not need to have any mode S designation for the transponder and C will work in all cases."

I then posed the question about what I should file if my airplane WAS approved for RF legs (GTN650 + GFC500).  Here is his response:

"It is eligible for O2, as is my GTN750/G500TXi, but I don't waste my time adding it."

By the way, I had to look up what ERAM is.  It's The En Route Automation Modernization.  That's the program that assigns your route of flight after you file your flightplan.