Right rudder?

[moonlighting7]

Just now, Hank said:

Wait a minute--you have a left crosswind, which will blow the plane right, and right rudder to push the nose right, but are turning left? Wind is hitting the tail, pushing tail right / nose left as you begin to climb. This is expected.

Why is this a problem? Stay coordinated, keep your ground track aligned with the runway; who cares what direction the nose points? 

When the crosswind is blowing, I do like my Owners Manual says and go a little faster then snatch it off the runway. My normal rotation is 70 mph, so I'll hold it on until 75 then pop off quickly and weathervane away.

Maybe I just made too much of it.... And it was just a poor takeoff.   Again new plane and it got my attention.  Lol

[Hank]

2 minutes ago, moonlighting7 said:

Maybe I just made too much of it.... And it was just a poor takeoff.   Again new plane and it got my attention.  Lol

It's all part of learning. That's why we hangar fly, to share and to learn.

[carusoam]

ML7,

My apologies... i’m Still learning to write. My memory is a bit fuzzy...

So the points come out a bit harsh sometimes.

It sounded like you didn’t have much experience. Typical of me when I bought an M20C...

or you didn’t feel like typing, as many people do.  Until, they find out how hard it is to make their point clearly...

The pic was just missing the detail that you were guessing about... Have you seen how many pics I have re-posted around here?

Or you weren’t familiar with your plane’s tail.

I’m not a CFI, so I wasn’t giving instruction... as it could get misinterpreted by somebody...

But, I do know the POH... Most of it is still very good for the topics it covered... except engine operations.

It is quite horrible for the topics it leaves off...

 

Briefly,

A response....

36 minutes ago, moonlighting7 said:

Ok so...I cropped the pic to show the hinge... Never knew they went full length.  Two it's a 200hp not 180.  I have 200+ hours behind a180... I have like 10 hrs in a152 so no idea where you got that from.  I have a legit concern... Not hiding anything. Follow my posts!  I just bought the plane and am learning it.  If your commenting to help them great... You appear just to criticize... So kindly take that elsewhere. 

You are pretty fun to hang with...

1) I did follow all of your few posts... did you follow all of mine? 

2) If you put some data in your avatar area I would know you have 200hp, if you put the Key words M20E in there...

3) I was honestly trying to help you out. Not memorize your life story.

4) As far as taking things else where... me? Really? 

5) Yes you are new around here. And everyone is different. They are going to ask some hard questions to understand what you are doing and what you are looking for and best how to help...

6) yes, it will sound like criticism... or selling you some really good instruction....

7) there are proper ways to explore the envelope of your plane... especially the tail.

8) there are even threads around here where people compare cross wind functionality of the various Mooney tails...

9) There are Even threads where people have lost control of their Mooneys on take-off.  Look for a Bravo lost in NJ a few years ago...

10) Some threads discuss what could be wrong with your nose-wheel assembly...

11) you describe not controlling your plane during a take-off.  

12) I was trying to get you to describe machine issues and pilot issues...

13) I thought I gave you some ways to discuss your experience. Either plane or piloting...

14)I would like to be more saint like... but there is only so much time in one day to get it right...

15) I’ll promise to try harder... I invite you to do so too... 

You just found out MS is on the internet... but it isn’t the ordinary environment of the internet...

Try the search function there is a ton of detail already written about... study a few threads before launching a question...

You will find you get a lot of answers at first.   After a while people tend to skip the basic questions. 

Try to not attack the guys that have been here a while, or have a lot of posts, or have a lot of experience, or are trying to help you out...

Best regards,

-a-

 

[carusoam]

You guys and your pics...

The blue arrow points to hank’s Extended rudder...

If you have a short rudder, your white tail light will be mounted in a fixed tail cone...

 

 

427, I tried to lighten your pic to see if you had the cone or the extension... but it is just too dark to tell...  who is hiding under the tail plane? 

 

[FloridaMan]

I caught myself with similar issues when I started flying Mooneys. If you’re aggressive leaving the ground, a lot of rudder can be used up in P-factor as well. If you find yourself drifting to the left on takeoff and running out of rudder, lower the nose and accelerate. 

Here’s a video of me taking off right after I got my Mooney. You see the plane drift to the left. I used to film my flights and watch myself afterwards, that’s how I discovered the error. 

 

Edited August 22, 2019 by FloridaMan

[PT20J]

From POH, demonstrated x-wind velocity:

M20J 11 kts

C-152 12 kts

C-172N 15 kts

C-182Q 20 kts(takeoff) 15 kts (landing)

PA-28-181 17 kts

 

 

[jaylw314]

8 minutes ago, PT20J said:

From POH, demonstrated x-wind velocity:

M20J 11 kts

C-152 12 kts

C-172N 15 kts

C-182Q 20 kts(takeoff) 15 kts (landing)

PA-28-181 17 kts

 

 

I just landed a couple weeks ago with a direct 17 kt crosswind in my J (they've been rebuilding the crosswind runway for about 2 months).  Did the approach at 80 KIAS but otherwise didn't have to do any special technique.  During the entire rollout, I could feel the left wing wanting to lift up even with the yoke all the way to the left.  Granted, I forgot to retract the flaps, but I don't think I'll be trying anything more than that in the future...

I suspect the Mooney POH's are very conservative in terms of demonstrated crosswind capability.  Is there a reason that would be true?

Edited August 22, 2019 by jaylw314

[Hank]

10 minutes ago, jaylw314 said:

I suspect the Mooney POH's are very conservative in terms of demonstrated crosswind capability.  Is there a reason that would be true?

Isn't "Demonstrated crosswind" just what was encountered during certification flights? It is certainly not supposed to be any sort of limit.

I've not been able to find anything on crosswinds in my 1970 M20-C Owners Manual other than to take off at slightly higher airspeed than normal, and to approach at higher airspeeds in gusty or crosswind conditions--no numerical guidance is provided, and there is certainly nothing in the Limitations section.

[jaylw314]

1 minute ago, Hank said:

Isn't "Demonstrated crosswind" just what was encountered during certification flights? It is certainly not supposed to be any sort of limit.

I've not been able to find anything on crosswinds in my 1970 M20-C Owners Manual other than to take off at slightly higher airspeed than normal, and to approach at higher airspeeds in gusty or crosswind conditions--no numerical guidance is provided, and there is certainly nothing in the Limitations section.

No, it's not a limit, but it's strange that the demonstrated crosswind is so much less than other aircraft, when the actual capability seems to be similar

[DonMuncy]

It is my understanding that the certification regulations require a minimum demonstrated cross wind ability of some % of Vy or some such. Then during the testing process the test pilot has to meet or exceed that number. Whatever crosswind was encountered that day (provided it meets the minimum) is the number published in the POH. As such, it really is a meaningless number for our purposes. 

[Hank]

14 minutes ago, DonMuncy said:

It is my understanding that the certification regulations require a minimum demonstrated cross wind ability of some % of Vy or some such. Then during the testing process the test pilot has to meet or exceed that number. Whatever crosswind was encountered that day (provided it meets the minimum) is the number published in the POH. As such, it really is a meaningless number for our purposes. 

Maybe it means that Kerrville isn't as windy as Wichita?

[Yetti]

Since we are on P factor and the finer points of flying a fast plane.   A little trick that was shown to me.   Since you holding so much right rudder on take off.  To do a left turn out after take off.   Just lighten up on the right rudder a tad.   Wala ah a smooth turn to impress your instructor with.

[Tcraft938]

3 hours ago, jaylw314 said:

I just landed a couple weeks ago with a direct 17 kt crosswind in my J (they've been rebuilding the crosswind runway for about 2 months).  Did the approach at 80 KIAS but otherwise didn't have to do any special technique.  During the entire rollout, I could feel the left wing wanting to lift up even with the yoke all the way to the left.  Granted, I forgot to retract the flaps, but I don't think I'll be trying anything more than that in the future...

I suspect the Mooney POH's are very conservative in terms of demonstrated crosswind capability.  Is there a reason that would be true?

Also don't forget in the POH that is maximum demonstrated crosswind, not necessarily a maximum.  While that demonstration was performed by allegedly a well trained and flies a lot test pilot in a new and perfectly rigged airplane.  So one could extrapolate that the plane is capable of more, another may say, "I'm not a test pilot" and have a more conservative personal maximum x-wind limit.    I am wonder if the original poster may have also encountered a nuance to the Mooney that was new to me recently as well.  That is the interconnect.  When sitting in the hangar put some left or right rudder in and watch the yoke move.  Perhaps when he was holding the left wing down it was also pulling the rudder left so it took a bit more force than expected and was giving it?  Or the reverse, feeding in right rudder so the system tried to pull the yoke right and he needed a little more force on the yoke to keep the upwind wing planted.  So far I have found that the short body Mooney is quick, but there are two things not to be quick or rush them on..... lift off and landing.  If windy, don't get it light on the wheels too early and when landing if she's not ready to settle onto the runway, don't get in a hurry and try to force/plant it on.  Follow those basic tenants and so far I've found her to be a little sweetheart.

[jaylw314]

12 minutes ago, Tcraft938 said:

Also don't forget in the POH that is maximum demonstrated crosswind, not necessarily a maximum.  While that demonstration was performed by allegedly a well trained and flies a lot test pilot in a new and perfectly rigged airplane.  So one could extrapolate that the plane is capable of more, another may say, "I'm not a test pilot" and have a more conservative personal maximum x-wind limit.    I am wonder if the original poster may have also encountered a nuance to the Mooney that was new to me recently as well.  That is the interconnect.  When sitting in the hangar put some left or right rudder in and watch the yoke move.  Perhaps when he was holding the left wing down it was also pulling the rudder left so it took a bit more force than expected and was giving it?  Or the reverse, feeding in right rudder so the system tried to pull the yoke right and he needed a little more force on the yoke to keep the upwind wing planted.  So far I have found that the short body Mooney is quick, but there are two things not to be quick or rush them on..... lift off and landing.  If windy, don't get it light on the wheels too early and when landing if she's not ready to settle onto the runway, don't get in a hurry and try to force/plant it on.  Follow those basic tenants and so far I've found her to be a little sweetheart.

I get the demonstrated part, I was more curious as to why different companies seem to "demonstrate" it to differing degrees.

Wait a minute, why are you suggesting sitting in the hangar and applying rudder?  That doesn't work.

[Yetti]

36 minutes ago, jaylw314 said:

Wait a minute, why are you suggesting sitting in the hangar and applying rudder?  That doesn't work.

if you make appropriate airplane sounds it does.     And just one other note.  When you move the trim up and down the yoke goes in and out.  So if you were trimming on take off the yoke may have moved relative to where it was.

[PT20J]

19 minutes ago, Yetti said:

if you make appropriate airplane sounds it does.     And just one other note.  When you move the trim up and down the yoke goes in and out.  So if you were trimming on take off the yoke may have moved relative to where it was.

The elevator springs are the trim assist bungees used through the J models. They bias the elevator neutral position as the trim is moved in order to reduce the amount of tail incidence change required.

Aileron-rudder interconnects are frequently used to correct some stability or control issue in the lateral axis. The Mooney has rather long (spanwise) flaps. This leaves less wing for the ailerons and the Mooney has rather short ailerons of wide chord. A certain area is needed for effectiveness. They couldn't be much wider in chord as the control forces are already high enough that the trailing edge was beveled (an aerodynamic trick to reduce hinge moment). The roll rate of the Mooney is not too snappy and the interconnect likely improves it over what it otherwise would be.

Skip

[RLCarter]

55 minutes ago, Yetti said:

if you make appropriate airplane sounds it does. 

Not wanting to pencil whip my logbook..... But how does this get logged?...

[MB65E]

“Ground training device”

-Matt

[Tcraft938]

2 hours ago, jaylw314 said:

I get the demonstrated part, I was more curious as to why different companies seem to "demonstrate" it to differing degrees.

Wait a minute, why are you suggesting sitting in the hangar and applying rudder?  That doesn't work.

When on the ground when not moving you can turn the nose wheel a bit with rudder and the yoke turns a bit. I used to make airplane noises but the airport manager caught me and said I only get an 80% discount on fuel for "dream flying"  lol

[PT20J]

On 8/22/2019 at 10:36 AM, DonMuncy said:

It is my understanding that the certification regulations require a minimum demonstrated cross wind ability of some % of Vy or some such. Then during the testing process the test pilot has to meet or exceed that number. Whatever crosswind was encountered that day (provided it meets the minimum) is the number published in the POH. As such, it really is a meaningless number for our purposes. 

Don, the certification requirement is 0.2 x V_so which is about 11 kts. However, we know that the test pilots work really hard to get the shortest takeoff roll, best rate of climb, and highest cruise speed numbers possible for the handbook, so it seems odd to me that they wouldn't work a bit to get the highest possible demonstrated crosswind, too. This number has been in the J POH since 1977. The test pilots did a lot of test flights over the years: other numbers have changed, but not that one. Maybe the wind never blows more than 11 kts in Kerrville.

Skip

[carusoam]

Demonstrated T/O cross winds were noted in the O’s POH... @ 13kts...

Demonstrated Landing cross winds were noted @ 13kts as well...

All that extra distance back to the rudder really accounts for something! 

Best regards,

-a-

[1967 427]

On 8/21/2019 at 10:05 PM, carusoam said:

You guys and your pics...

The blue arrow points to hank’s Extended rudder...

If you have a short rudder, your white tail light will be mounted in a fixed tail cone...

 

 

427, I tried to lighten your pic to see if you had the cone or the extension... but it is just too dark to tell...  who is hiding under the tail plane? 

 

My tail cone is fix, I thought that was visible in this picture, and the person (my wife) isn’t hidings she is hard at work assisting in keeping my second favorite lady clean.

[Yetti]

On 8/22/2019 at 4:49 PM, RLCarter said:

Not wanting to pencil whip my logbook..... But how does this get logged?...

Let's see.  Certified device, sole manipulator of the controls, (it's a little weird if two of y'all are doing it above the age of 11)   seems legit to just put it down as a local fight.

[bradp]

On 8/22/2019 at 5:17 PM, PT20J said:

The elevator springs are the trim assist bungees used through the J models. They bias the elevator neutral position as the trim is moved in order to reduce the amount of tail incidence change required.

Aileron-rudder interconnects are frequently used to correct some stability or control issue in the lateral axis. The Mooney has rather long (spanwise) flaps. This leaves less wing for the ailerons and the Mooney has rather short ailerons of wide chord. A certain area is needed for effectiveness. They couldn't be much wider in chord as the control forces are already high enough that the trailing edge was beveled (an aerodynamic trick to reduce hinge moment). The roll rate of the Mooney is not too snappy and the interconnect likely improves it over what it otherwise would be.

Skip

And this makes me happy so I don’t have to use my feet in cruise :-) 

They should have headed to Mojave or Ocracoke for the Max denonstrated xwind.  

Wonder how much of the crosswind component in the POH is influenced by the lawyers...we all know that the med and long bodies with full rudders can do 30+ direct but that would never show up in a POH. 

Anyone know which type certificated civil GA aircraft has the highest demonstrated xwind component? 

[RLCarter]

39 minutes ago, Yetti said:

 (it's a little weird if two of y'all are doing it above the age of 11) 

Not if your sitting in a twin, then your a required crew member