Earth,water or Trees?

[mooneygirl]

Erik

I don't see the seminar online at AOPA.  I suppose it is because they are still showing it around the country. I actually attended the seminar at OSH and they said that 50,000 had seen it!  Yikes. At least my hair looked good.  HA

I will let you all know if the seminar becomes available online.

Nutshell:  #1 cylinder valve came unseated on a compression stroke apparently on takeoff.  Departed Hood River, OR 4S2 runway 29.  We were in the air maybe 90 seconds or so. Terrain rising to Mt. Defiance,  we were not rising. I cut the engine and pitched up into flare.  Six trees taken out by the Lucas tree trimming service.  Landed upside down in a mud pond with trees on us.  No intrusions into cabin. No major injuries. She protected us all the way to the ground.

 

[aviatoreb]

Quote: mooneygirl

Erik

I don't see the seminar online at AOPA.  I suppose it is because they are still showing it around the country. I actually attended the seminar at OSH and they said that 50,000 had seen it!  Yikes. At least my hair looked good.  HA

I will let you all know if the seminar becomes available online.

Nutshell:  #1 cylinder valve came unseated on a compression stroke apparently on takeoff.  Departed Hood River, OR 4S2 runway 29.  We were in the air maybe 90 seconds or so. Terrain rising to Mt. Defiance,  we were not rising. I cut the engine and pitched up into flare.  Six trees taken out by the Lucas tree trimming service.  Landed upside down in a mud pond with trees on us.  No intrusions into cabin. No major injuries. She protected us all the way to the ground.

 

[Hank]

If I remember correctly, Jolie had an article in the MAPALog a couple of years ago about the accident. Also had a series of Promote-GA magazine articles published last fall [in Atlantic Monthly or some such non-flying, general interest publication] including the accident.

[BorealOne]

I'd take water. I fly routinely over some of the most remote country on earth here in Canada's North, where roads or fields aren't an option and spiking it into the spruce trees just doesn't seem all that attractive to me. My first choice would be a sandy shoreline, but failing that, parallel to shore in shallow water. I'm an experienced float pilot with floating hull (Lake amphib) experience, so I'd attempt to bring it in low and slow in ground effect, bleed off the speed, then tail stall it into the water (nose high, rudder to keep wings level, GEAR UP)...same way as we'd do it in a Lake on a botched landing...hope I never get to test that theory, though! 

[fantom]

Quote: pmccand

Here is the best article I have found on ditching (crash landing) your aircraft that I have seen. I would NEVER stall above the tree line or land in water according to this insigtful article. (English language article)

 

[henrylarry6]

[richardheitzman]

all good stuff. I attended most of the seminars at the beginning of the year and head Jolie tell her story many times and it still sends chills through me. You do the best you can with what you have and you fly the plane. I would try for flat field, then brush / uphill, then for (small) trees, then for water.

Of course I would have my airbags on board. (had to say it, sorry). this is a great example of the need. Jolie mentions in her interview that they only had lap belts and hit the panel. If you do not have a shoulder harness installed PLEASE get out there and get one put in before your next flight. You increase your chance of surviving by 50% just by doing that.

[MooneyMitch]

Thank you Richard.  Yep, should harnesses purchased through LASAR were installed in Maggie II prior to Jolie's first flight. 

[1964-M20E]

Well when taking off on 36R or L at KNEW your only opiton is water.  On 9, 18R or L you have 2 options buldings/houses or water.  From 27 you might be able to make 90 degrees right and land on 36 or a taxiway but I digress.

Me water, earth trees

[thinwing]

Borealone...I would make a water landing in a Mooney by mentally creating a "runway"into the wind if possible and say no further from shore than 50 ft.I would use the yoke back tail mush landing only if I experienced a severe bounce because the risk of a real stall just feet from the surface is too great with a land pilot who had never botched a water landing before.(Borrealone is referring to a method to correct a bounced landing in a lake amphib...Why not just add power you ask like we do in a mooney??..because the engine being mounted high on a pylon and facing backwards tends to push the nose down upon powerup)Anyway...Once I had my imaginary 2000 ft next to shore..I would do what every Mooney pilot knows how to do...Make a normal flaps down,70mph approach EXCEPT WITH THE GEAR RETRACTED...I believe it will be a total non event...and you will have time to grab a seat cushion (Yep they float just fine)and dog paddle to shore....hopefully this isnt the dead of winter...dont be surprised if when you reach shore your once proud bird will still be floating...I have heard of real tight birds taking 1/2 hour to sink.During war world 2 my father water landed a Gooneybird (DC 3) of the coast of Tunisia (Mediterrean) after being shot up by an enemy fighter.He was able to exit onto a patrol boat who later had to sink it as a hazard to navigation because the dc 3 with empty tanks would not sink!!!kp couch

[DaV8or]

Quote: richardheitzman

If you do not have a shoulder harness installed PLEASE get out there and get one put in before your next flight. You increase your chance of surviving by 50% just by doing that.

[jetdriven]

We just put in shoulder harnesses in our J due to taking a 25 hour trip flying over forests, water, night, fuel from unfamiliar sources, airplane left out in the rain, etc.  It flew 5000 hours without them.

 

It seems hard flat ground is the best choice, its basically a runway.  Tall vegetation would be a close second.  Water is preferrable to trees.  I saw a Bellanca crash into trees and it stopped in about 30 feet.  The occupants did not survive. Hitting oak at 100 MPH might as well be cement.

The airbag seatbelts might be useful in a low speed collision, but the 5 or more grand they cost or more, could probably be spent on something that could enhance safety more.  Such as training or other equipment. I see a lot of things being bought to enhance safety during a crash, but how about training and equipment to prevent one?

[richardheitzman]

Quote: jetdriven

The airbag seatbelts might be useful in a low speed collision, but the 5 or more grand they cost or more, could probably be spent on something that could enhance safety more. Such as training or other equipment. I see a lot of things being bought to enhance safety during a crash, but how about training and equipment to prevent one?

[aviatoreb]

Quote: richardheitzman

 

[jetdriven]

 I said that airbags are somethign to increase survivability during a crash. How about we prevent the crash.

But since some 90% of accidents are caused by pilot error, and I an still a CFI and witness a lot of things during BFR's, I'd say there is plenty of room for more training. Not simply stalls and flaps up landings, but real short field landings to a full stop, crosswind landings at the limits, rejected takeoffs (whens the last time you did one of those?),  secondary stalls, runn a tank dry. unusual attitudes,  etc etc. etc.

When that is good, there is also some other equipment to increase safety, Im not talking about portable TCAS either. Shoulder harnesses are the best bang for the buck for sure.  How about standby vacuum, or an electric attitude indicator? Better instrument lighting?  Moving map GPS? service bulletin to open baggage door from inside?

[jetdriven]

All of these issues you describe below (except engine failure on takeoff) all demonstrate the pilot who made enough poor decisions to allow themselves to be in that situation. Yes, Box canyons and "sudden windstorms" are mostly avoidable situations. The FAA has a term for that, ADM, aeronautical decision making. Thats a new focus of theirs.

The Cirrus has all the electronic gozmos plus a rocket parachute and airbag seatbelts. It also has a fatal accident rate 2 or 3 times that of a Mooney M20.  After watching them operate at Oshkosh this year, and around Houston, the difference is staggering.  Pilot training and ability.

Quote: richardheitzman

Airbags are not there for "unsafe pilots". Training does not prevent the engine failure on takeoff (Joile) or the sudden windstorm on landing, or the frozen throttle in the middle of a swamp or getting caught in a box canyon in a down draft that slams your aircraft into the ground

 

[aviatoreb]

Quote: jetdriven

But since some 90% of accidents are caused by pilot error, and I an

still a CFI and witness a lot of things during BFR's, I'd say there is plenty of room for more training. Not simply stalls and flaps up landings, but real short field landings to a full stop, crosswind landings at the limits, rejected takeoffs (whens the last time you did one of those?),  secondary stalls, runn a tank dry. unusual attitudes,  etc etc. etc.