You are buying a plane. What needs to be on board pre-purchase?

[LantisPDX]

Hello all,

I am working through my PPL and (I believe) I am a few weeks away from qualifying for my check ride. So far all my training has been completed in a  variety of C-172s but I am very interested in purchasing a Mooney after getting my certificate. 

My question for everyone is what avionics you would want to see in a Mooney to get your interested. Being new I have only been exposed to what the planes I have flown in have,  I have not used auto-pilots, storm scopes, radars or lots of the other higher end avionics. The most technologically advanced item I have exposure to is a GTX-430

 

Things that I know I would like are

Altitude/heading hold autopilot.

WAAS gtx-430 or better.

A transponder with ADS-B.

VOR reciever (Or Dual even better) and DME.

+Minimum equipment list 

And not technically avionics but I think speed brakes are high on my list as well.

 

I understand that you can install new GPS, Autopilot, Speedbrakes etc after the purchase but it sounds like its generally a better idea to buy a plane with the setup you already want. If you have a strong opinion about that I would be interested to hear it as well!

Thanks much!

Erik

[DustinNwind]

I'm actually selling my airplane and have been looking for a new one (M20E to 182, please don't hate me). One of the problems I'm having when looking at new planes - people selling their old avionics like they're new. 430 and 530 will be getting old considering the new beautiful stuff for under $10k, stec 30 and old AP are going to be subpar compared to the new stuff. So I'm having a hard time buying someones old avionics for new avionic prices. My ideal plane I'm looking for is a newer engine, impeccable maintenance history, and a clean slate to put the newest avionics in. One thing that I want to see in the plane is some type of engine monitor when they overhauled the engine.

[jaylw314]

1 hour ago, LantisPDX said:

Hello all,

I am working through my PPL and (I believe) I am a few weeks away from qualifying for my check ride. So far all my training has been completed in a  variety of C-172s but I am very interested in purchasing a Mooney after getting my certificate. 

My question for everyone is what avionics you would want to see in a Mooney to get your interested. Being new I have only been exposed to what the planes I have flown in have,  I have not used auto-pilots, storm scopes, radars or lots of the other higher end avionics. The most technologically advanced item I have exposure to is a GTX-430

 

Things that I know I would like are

Altitude/heading hold autopilot.

WAAS gtx-430 or better.

A transponder with ADS-B.

VOR reciever (Or Dual even better) and DME.

+Minimum equipment list 

And not technically avionics but I think speed brakes are high on my list as well.

 

I understand that you can install new GPS, Autopilot, Speedbrakes etc after the purchase but it sounds like its generally a better idea to buy a plane with the setup you already want. If you have a strong opinion about that I would be interested to hear it as well!

Thanks much!

Erik

Hi Erik--

Welcome aboard and good luck with the checkride!

My $0.02

Given you're probably interested in a Mooney in part because of the long cross country speed and efficiency, an autopilot is a pretty good near-requirement.  While it adds complexity, cost and headache, it can reduce your workload in critical phases in flight, and you will be less fatigued at the end of a long flight when you need the most concentration.  The more functions, the better, with approach/GS coupling, yaw control and GPSS being the most.  Most older Mooneys have either the Century or BK series AP's, although there are some intrepid souls who have retrofitted other options.

A multicylinder graphic engine monitor is a must, preferably with data logging.

WAAS GPS is only necessary if you're planning on getting your IFR rating (which you should)

ADS-B transponder is only necessary if you're planning on flying near any Class B airspace.  

Stormscopes are questionable in value, but a nice addition

Speedbrakes might be helpful for some of the turbo long-bodies, but for any NA Mooney it's just a luxury.

Edit: I somehow missed the fact that you're up in Beaverton.  Give me a PM if you're interested in poking around a J model.  It'll be down for a couple weeks here sorting out a fuel pressure issue, and an annual next month, but I'm just down in Corvallis

Edited August 14, 2019 by jaylw314

[FlyinAggie14]

Dual axis autopilot would be a must or know you are going to spend 15AMUs or more to install a new digital AP. 
If you have a WAAS GPS really no need for a DME.  
I agree with  jaylw314 in the fact that an engine monitor with egts and chts for each cylinder is a must.  Sign up for savvy and upload engine data. 
Speed breaks really would not be on my list at all if I was searching for a J model or older Mooney.  

[gsxrpilot]

You're getting good advice in this thread... I made a wish list when looking for my first Mooney. I first I ordered the list by what was important to me, and the later reordered it to account for the cost of adding a particular item later. An autopilot is just VERY expensive to install later. We keep hearing of affordable autopilots right on the verge of availability, but as of today, there is nothing available. So get a plane that has one already. 

Another example is an engine monitor. I wouldn't own a plane without one, but it's pretty far down the list just because it's a relatively inexpensive thing to add later.

Here was my list. I just went as far down the list as I could afford.

No corrosion
Regularly flown/flying/currently in annual
Engine between 500 and 1000 SMOH
IFR Certified
Autopilot/altitude hold
WAAS GPS
Standard 6-pack panel
HSI
2nd Nav/Comm
no AD prop
1 piece windshield
Tank bladders or re-sealed tanks
Engine monitor
Exterior paint
Interior condition
2 blade prop

[ZuluZulu]

12 minutes ago, gsxrpilot said:

You're getting good advice in this thread... I made a wish list when looking for my first Mooney. I first I ordered the list by what was important to me, and the later reordered it to account for the cost of adding a particular item later. An autopilot is just VERY expensive to install later. We keep hearing of affordable autopilots right on the verge of availability, but as of today, there is nothing available. So get a plane that has one already. 

Another example is an engine monitor. I wouldn't own a plane without one, but it's pretty far down the list just because it's a relatively inexpensive thing to add later.

Here was my list. I just went as far down the list as I could afford.

No corrosion
Regularly flown/flying/currently in annual
Engine between 500 and 1000 SMOH
IFR Certified
Autopilot/altitude hold
WAAS GPS
Standard 6-pack panel
HSI
2nd Nav/Comm
no AD prop
1 piece windshield
Tank bladders or re-sealed tanks
Engine monitor
Exterior paint
Interior condition
2 blade prop

The only thing I'd add to this excellent hierarchy of priorities is an ADS-B transponder, because it's starting to get too close to the deadline to comfortably defer it, and you may not be able to find a shop to get you in before January.  You could do a skyBeacon as a $2K stopgap if you find a plane that otherwise checks all the boxes, but ideally you'll find one with a permanent in/out 1090ES solution already in place.

Unless a skyBeacon covers everything you need for the flying you're going to be doing...

[McMooney]

12 minutes ago, gsxrpilot said:

You're getting good advice in this thread... I made a wish list when looking for my first Mooney. I first I ordered the list by what was important to me, and the later reordered it to account for the cost of adding a particular item later. An autopilot is just VERY expensive to install later. We keep hearing of affordable autopilots right on the verge of availability, but as of today, there is nothing available. So get a plane that has one already. 

Another example is an engine monitor. I wouldn't own a plane without one, but it's pretty far down the list just because it's a relatively inexpensive thing to add later.

Here was my list. I just went as far down the list as I could afford.

No corrosion
Regularly flown/flying/currently in annual
Engine between 500 and 1000 SMOH
IFR Certified
Autopilot/altitude hold
WAAS GPS
Standard 6-pack panel
HSI
2nd Nav/Comm
no AD prop
1 piece windshield
Tank bladders or re-sealed tanks
Engine monitor
Exterior paint
Interior condition
2 blade prop

After owning my plane for 2 years now, I'd reorder this just a bit:
    1. NO CORROSION -- MANDATORY
    2. Regularly flown/flying/currently AND in annual
    3. IFR Certified
    4. ADSB Transponder 
    5. PREF WAAS GPS
    6. Standard 6-pack panel
    9. no AD prop
    10 piece windshield
    11. Tank bladders or re-sealed tanks
    12. Engine monitor
    13. exterior paint
    14. Interior condition

    ADSB IS A MUST -- JUST DO IT.  A real transponder type Appareo, garmin, king, etc....

   I"d suggest you buy it with the plane or get real friendly with an AP.

    agree autopilot is high on the list,  it really helps on longer flights.  

    GPS STRONGLY recommend WAAS.  these things are a FORTUNE to purchase and install, don't be that guy.
      Also the way VORs are going down for "Maintenance", prob soon a neccessity.

    tanks and prop def, why start knowing you'll be writing huge checks.

 

[0TreeLemur]

45 minutes ago, gsxrpilot said:

You're getting good advice in this thread... I made a wish list when looking for my first Mooney. I first I ordered the list by what was important to me, and the later reordered it to account for the cost of adding a particular item later. An autopilot is just VERY expensive to install later. We keep hearing of affordable autopilots right on the verge of availability, but as of today, there is nothing available. So get a plane that has one already. 

Another example is an engine monitor. I wouldn't own a plane without one, but it's pretty far down the list just because it's a relatively inexpensive thing to add later.

Here was my list. I just went as far down the list as I could afford.

No corrosion
Regularly flown/flying/currently in annual
Engine between 500 and 1000 SMOH
IFR Certified
Autopilot/altitude hold
WAAS GPS
Standard 6-pack panel
HSI
2nd Nav/Comm
no AD prop
1 piece windshield
Tank bladders or re-sealed tanks
Engine monitor
Exterior paint
Interior condition
2 blade prop

Paul's list is an all-inclusive excellent set that will be almost impossible to find all together.    I kind of like @McMooney 's priorities. 

The time since major overhaul is a price deduct if high, so I wouldn't necessarily rule out something with 1300-1400 SMOH.   Most 2-blade props have the 100 h eddy-current inspection requirement, so that should be a lower priority.  It adds $2 to $3 per hour to the cost of flying if you have to do it.   Maybe you buy a plane with slightly leaky tanks- another deduction from the purchase price.  Autopilot is optional if you like to fly by hand.   A working PC system will follow a magenta line quite nicely when equipped with an Accutrak or some such doohicky.

If you have GPS you don't need DME.  GPS is DME.  Plus, the old DME's of yore are power hungry and heavy.   Skip that from  your list.

Have it inspected for corrosion by someone who knows what they are doing.  That is the biggest show stopper.  The rest is just money.

[carusoam]

Erik,

See if you can go on an actual IFR flight with somebody...

You get the feel nearly immediately of what you want, need, or don’t need...

DME, and ADF, are a couple of not so critical devices....

a modern WAAS gps, also has VOR and ILS skills... three radios in one box.

Budgets are important... for many.  Don’t buy too much or too little....

Always keep some cash available for that first annual... so many things can crop up in a year... or not...

Best regards,

-a-

[gsxrpilot]

Yep, ADSB should be on the list. Back in 2014 when I put the list together, there was still time to look at options. Buying a plane today, it should be there.

I'll also agree that you won't find everything on the list. That's why the order of the list is important. I worked to find the Mooney that got as far down the list as possible. 

It's also important to look at the cost to add/upgrade the bits on the list that are missing. And engine monitor and ADSB can be relatively inexpensive to add. An autopilot and WAAS GPS are not inexpensive.

On older Mooneys such as C's and E's, my spreadsheet showed that every additional dollar I spent on the purchase price to buy a plane with the upgrades already done, I saved $4 of upgrade costs. In other words, buy the best example you can find. It will be the cheapest in the long run.

[cwaters]

On ‎8‎/‎15‎/‎2019 at 9:25 AM, gsxrpilot said:

On older Mooneys such as C's and E's, my spreadsheet showed that every additional dollar I spent on the purchase price to buy a plane with the upgrades already done, I saved $4 of upgrade costs. In other words, buy the best example you can find. It will be the cheapest in the long run.

any way I can get a copy of that spreadsheet, I'm looking at purchasing an E and having some trouble finding what I'm looking for.

[rbridges]

The autopilot and GPS are the two most expensive panel upgrades.  I'd make sure those are there.  Like Paul mentioned, a modified plane costs more, but much less than paying for upgrades later.

[gsxrpilot]

7 hours ago, cwaters said:

any way I can get a copy of that spreadsheet, I'm looking at purchasing an E and having some trouble finding what I'm looking for.

I'm looking but that was a while ago. And I've changed computers since then.

My spreadsheet had a column for each C or E that was available for sale at that time. I'd keep adding columns each time another one came up for sale.

In the first column going down, I listed all the individual features such as:

Asking price
Engine hours
Regularly/currently flown yes/no
Autopilot/altitude hold
WAAS GPS
Standard 6-pack panel
HSI
2nd Nav/Comm
no AD prop
1 piece windshield
Tank bladders or sealed tanks
Engine monitor
Exterior paint condition
Interior condition
2 blade prop

This allowed me to quickly compare asking prices of planes and the installed equipment. I figured about $20K to install an Stec30 autopilot but the difference in cost between a plane that had one and one that didn't was only $5K. So it made sense to buy one that had one already installed.

Personally I wouldn't buy a C or E that didn't have at least an Stec30 autopilot and a GNS430W. They are not easy to find, and will sell quickly when they come on the market. Hopefully the TruTrak autopilot changes this calculation. But at the moment the cost of adding an autopilot and a WAAS GPS is high.

[BKlott]

Well, if you are married, your Wife better be “on board” with the purchase or you may end up suffering from A.I.D.S.

(Aircraft Induced Divorce Syndrome)

[ZuluZulu]

On 12/12/2019 at 5:36 PM, gsxrpilot said:

I'm looking but that was a while ago. And I've changed computers since then.

My spreadsheet had a column for each C or E that was available for sale at that time. I'd keep adding columns each time another one came up for sale.

In the first column going down, I listed all the individual features such as:

Asking price
Engine hours
Regularly/currently flown yes/no
Autopilot/altitude hold
WAAS GPS
Standard 6-pack panel
HSI
2nd Nav/Comm
no AD prop
1 piece windshield
Tank bladders or sealed tanks
Engine monitor
Exterior paint condition
Interior condition
2 blade prop

This allowed me to quickly compare asking prices of planes and the installed equipment. I figured about $20K to install an Stec30 autopilot but the difference in cost between a plane that had one and one that didn't was only $5K. So it made sense to buy one that had one already installed.

Personally I wouldn't buy a C or E that didn't have at least an Stec30 autopilot and a GNS430W. They are not easy to find, and will sell quickly when they come on the market. Hopefully the TruTrak autopilot changes this calculation. But at the moment the cost of adding an autopilot and a WAAS GPS is high.

Are you sure we're not related somehow?

[bill98]

On 8/14/2019 at 7:58 PM, gsxrpilot said:

You're getting good advice in this thread... I made a wish list when looking for my first Mooney. I first I ordered the list by what was important to me, and the later reordered it to account for the cost of adding a particular item later. An autopilot is just VERY expensive to install later. We keep hearing of affordable autopilots right on the verge of availability, but as of today, there is nothing available. So get a plane that has one already. 

Another example is an engine monitor. I wouldn't own a plane without one, but it's pretty far down the list just because it's a relatively inexpensive thing to add later.

Here was my list. I just went as far down the list as I could afford.

No corrosion
Regularly flown/flying/currently in annual
Engine between 500 and 1000 SMOH
IFR Certified
Autopilot/altitude hold
WAAS GPS
Standard 6-pack panel
HSI
2nd Nav/Comm
no AD prop
1 piece windshield
Tank bladders or re-sealed tanks
Engine monitor
Exterior paint
Interior condition
2 blade prop

Autopilot to me is very important, I would take a loaded panel with GPSS Autopilot that does NOT do altitude hold. At least in my Mooney it is very easy to keep level, although I have not done hard IFR where altitude hold becomes a blessing which you do not realize is a gift from god until you have been able to utilize it.

[Ragsf15e]

On 8/14/2019 at 2:57 PM, jaylw314 said:

Hi Erik--

Welcome aboard and good luck with the checkride!

My $0.02

Given you're probably interested in a Mooney in part because of the long cross country speed and efficiency, an autopilot is a pretty good near-requirement.  While it adds complexity, cost and headache, it can reduce your workload in critical phases in flight, and you will be less fatigued at the end of a long flight when you need the most concentration.  The more functions, the better, with approach/GS coupling, yaw control and GPSS being the most.  Most older Mooneys have either the Century or BK series AP's, although there are some intrepid souls who have retrofitted other options.

A multicylinder graphic engine monitor is a must, preferably with data logging.

WAAS GPS is only necessary if you're planning on getting your IFR rating (which you should)

ADS-B transponder is only necessary if you're planning on flying near any Class B airspace.  

Stormscopes are questionable in value, but a nice addition

Speedbrakes might be helpful for some of the turbo long-bodies, but for any NA Mooney it's just a luxury.

Edit: I somehow missed the fact that you're up in Beaverton.  Give me a PM if you're interested in poking around a J model.  It'll be down for a couple weeks here sorting out a fuel pressure issue, and an annual next month, but I'm just down in Corvallis

Careful, it’s not just required around class B.  It’s anywhere a transponder is currently, like above 10,000’, class C, etc.  It also greatly improves the traffic picture you will receive on a stratus type device.

At this point, it’s relatively cheap to install a skybeacon so it wouldn’t make or break a purchase, but you’re going to need/want it asap.

[Nick Pilotte]

On 12/13/2019 at 8:48 PM, ZuluZulu said:

Are you sure we're not related somehow?

Ok, please tell me where you got that comparison chart.  I need/want to create something like this. You and I have looked at a couple of the same aircraft too!

[ZuluZulu]

2 hours ago, Nick Pilotte said:

Ok, please tell me where you got that comparison chart.  I need/want to create something like this. You and I have looked at a couple of the same aircraft too!

I got it from making it!

[MBDiagMan]

There is great info in this thread, so I only have two comments:

First of all In the past Paul has pointed out the need for an autopilot to already be installed in the plane you buy.  The current choices now certified for Mooney’s consists only of expen$ive solutions.  Installing an autopilot after purchase is currently a serious endeavor.

Secondly, some people in this thread have the opinion that there is no need at all for ADS- B unless you are flying into Bravo or Charlie.  I believe it is becoming more and more necessary to not only be compliant with OUT, but a good solution for IN is also something you need for cross country or even local flying.  Having onboard weather and traffic is more valuable than you understand until you have flown with it.  I am very pleased to have it in both of my planes and can’t imagine even local flying, just buzzing around the lake without it.

My $0.02,

Edited December 16, 2019 by MBDiagMan

[Davidv]

You may not plan to fly your plane into rule airspace, but you better hope that the person who eventually buys it is going to do to the same...unless you never plan on selling.

[Ragsf15e]

6 hours ago, Davidv said:

You may not plan to fly your plane into rule airspace, but you better hope that the person who eventually buys it is going to do to the same...unless you never plan on selling.

True, but installing some of the newer options like Skybeacon are cheap/easy enough that it wouldn’t discourage me from buying a non-turbo airplane without ads-b already on it.

Now if you are going to want access to the flight levels or Canada, a 1090 solution will definitely cost more if it’s not already there.