wing removal

[aircharles]

Any idea on how big of a job to remove the entire wing assy from a 1980 m20k. I need to remove it for over the road transport.

[Parker_Woodruff]

Hmmm...the spar is one piece, correct?

[Cruiser]

yep, saw one exactly like that on a flatbed truck ready to leave an airport several years ago. Except it wasn't on the gear, it was on the belly, engine removed also.

[Piloto]

In the Mooneys the wing structure is a continuos piece from wing tip to wing tip. So you are actually doing a wing demating rather than wings removal. If you have good hangar facilities is not that difficult but time consuming I have done it twice. Besides the wing attach bolts you will need to disconnect flight control linkage (ailerons and flaps), main landing gear push rods, electrical wiring, fuel tank lines, pitot tube line and remove interiors. Removing the wing takes at least 50 man-hours and 100 man-hours to reinstall it. You will need to build a support cradle to hold the wing and the fuselage. If transporting remove the prop to avoid damage. Recommend read the Mooney Service Manual and Parts Manual before proceeding.

José

 

[Piloto]

Another option you may consider is transporting the whole airplane in one piece on a flat bed truck vertically. I saw this in Toulouse France. The plane landed on a wine field (ran out of fuel) and except for the prop it was intact. There was no hangar faclities for demating so a special wood cradle was built to support the plane vertically (engine down) on a flat bed truck. The cradle had small matresses in a U shape bracket to support the wings. The engine crankshaft was bolted to a wood bracket also. You will need a crane to lift the plane. Make sure there is no short height overpass along the truck route. What surprised me most is that the plane was flying three days later. The plane was an Ovation. 

José

  

[KSMooniac]

I watched two Mooney mechanics (from the factory) disassemble an Ovation for transport in a single weekend.  They removed the tail and the wing and had a special trailer that held everything nicely.  I'd say they did it in less than 20 hours total (two guys) but I'm sure they've done it a time or two before.

[aircharles]

Thanks for all the info, I think i will try and remove the rear fuselage behind the wing. Thanks again.

[FlyDave]

Just found this link:

http://www.airplane-pictures.net/type.php?p=1232

[Janderson1235]

Hello all,

I have a 64' E and my mechanic just found corrosion on the lower steel tubular longeron and said he needs to remove the wing to do the quick weld job to fix it. He quoted me $13,000 to remove the wing and fix the corrosion. In reading another thread I saw that someone said that removing the wing is possible in a day if not two. So if that is the case, is $13,000 reasonable? Surely it does not take two weeks to hook the wing back up to the fuselage right? Thanks

[KSMooniac]

Sounds pretty high to me...ask for a detailed estimate to get to that figure, and get another opinion.

Sent from my VS985 4G using Tapatalk

[Janderson1235]

I guess he sees this problem a lot because he said the last three Mooney's that had my problem came in around 13K. I'd like to get another opinion but my mechanic also said that since it's a structural issue, I would not be able to get a ferry permit.

[carusoam]

Welcome aboard JA.

This probably deserve's it's own thread...

Try to keep your question in one location.  You have appended to another thread at the same time. It will be a challenge to keep up with people answering things that have been answered already.

your mechanic has seen this before in other Mooneys?  We may get one on MS every other year or so.  Tragically, after purchase, instead of before.  That is the primary reason they invented the PPI.

What mechanic would see three....  is this at an MSC?

Rusty tubes was more of a problem a decade or two ago.  Planes were stored outside without covers.  Leaking windows were a neccesary link.  The old insulation held the moisture against the tubes.  Most people have removed that insulation by now...

How long have you owned your plane?  Is this your first Annual and you found the structural parts of your plane are missing?

Are you familiar with the SB that outlines the challenge you have?  Are you familiar with SBs?

Best regards,

-a-

[Janderson1235]

I'm sorry, like my profile says I am a "newbie" and I don't know how to start a new thread. To answer your questions though,

This was my grandfather's plane that sat next to the ocean under a T hanger for years. Being new to aviation (I was 24) I didn't know about PPI's, sure wish I did one though. I got it because I got a good family discount, but I have spent so much on it it's getting to the point that I don't know how much more I can take. I have had it for 3 years now and have spent about 60K on replacing everything but the airframe; it got a new engine last year.

Yes it is at a MSC, and without naming names, from my extensive reading throughout mooneyspace he is well respected. That's why I took it to him for this year's annual. I am just doing my due diligence and making sure 13K is reasonable instead of opening my checkbook off of blind trust. 

[carusoam]

A few ideas...

1) I'm trying to be helpful.  I'm not always very good at it.  But, I try to get it it right.  

2) Newbie indicates you showed up here without posting much.  It doesn't imply anything about your level of ownership or aviation experience, of how much you have read here.  We have a few newbies that have decades of Mooney experience.  They just don't post very much...

3) Some MSCs are better than others.  But, none are known to be terrible.  Search for the one you are using...  use the search box at the top of the page.  Searchable words need to be at least three or four letters long...

4) PPIs are great for identifying what needs to be done before embarking on such a long road.  There are a few steps that can be followed prior to purchase for your protection.

5) The PPI is for your wallet's protection.  It can also be helpful in building a work list and a quote for all the steps that need to be done to get the plane in AW condition.  A second list of nice to have items I'd often generated at the same time...

6) I am going to guess a few things...  not everyone wants to walk into a room and introduce themselves and talk about giant sums of dough...

7) You have your grandpa's plane that has some meaning to you.  Admirable idea, yes.  Affordable, only you can tell.

8) You are in TX.  A great place for Mooney ownership.

9) You can't use the plane in a non-AW condition.  Missing tubes is pretty much an AW issue.

10) If you are at KGGG, you have found the Mecca of Mooney Maintenance.  If you are not, why keep it a secret...?

11) If you want to move a plane that is not AW, that would require a ferry permit.

12) You are in for 60AMU already.

13) you are 24.  Can you afford to keep going with this project?

14) If you can't afford to keep going, can you get most of your 60AMU back out?

15) Un-AW planes sell for a deep discount over identical but AW alternatives.

16) If you need to sell, it may be better to fix it to AW condition before selling.  

17) Selling it will take effort, cost and a lot of time usually. This is financial risk management at it's best.

18) The engine is always a concern.  Not running for years is terrible for it's health.  If part of the 60AMU included an OH, you want to be aware of how to maintain it's health while it isn't flying.

19) Find the thread by Alex.  He is a young buck getting a Mooney back in flying condition.  He started a thread and has been following it through....

20) Make sure you are using the search function to learn about corrosion.  It is covered in many ways around here.  The worst cases are engine cam lobes, wing spars and fuselage tubes.  They happen very infrequently.  But, if you are the holder of the bag, you won't be happy knowing how infrequent it is.

21) Make sure you know how much everything is going to cost to reach the goal you have in mind.  Don't keep spending money, until you know it is going to get you where you want to be.

22) For perspective...   When I was 24, I had goals that included a plane but had no money to execute them.  It took a decade to go by, then I bought a used up M20C...  an M20J is a 2X expense compared to an M20C.  But their maintenance costs are about the same...

23) more on perspective... my son is coming up on your age.

I hope this is helpful in determining the steps required to get you where you want to go...  and why it may appear difficult when other guys seem to be breezing through spending money on avionics upgrades...  know that there are young guys with plenty of dough to do what you are doing.  Texas is a wonderful place to be!

Keep in mind, I am only a PP.  Not a mechanic.  I am only trying to help get you up to speed on Mooney airplanes...  That's what we do around here.

Best regards,

-a-

[kpaul]

55 minutes ago, Janderson1235 said:

I'm sorry, like my profile says I am a "newbie" and I don't know how to start a new thread. To answer your questions though,

This was my grandfather's plane that sat next to the ocean under a T hanger for years. Being new to aviation (I was 24) I didn't know about PPI's, sure wish I did one though. I got it because I got a good family discount, but I have spent so much on it it's getting to the point that I don't know how much more I can take. I have had it for 3 years now and have spent about 60K on replacing everything but the airframe; it got a new engine last year.

Yes it is at a MSC, and without naming names, from my extensive reading throughout mooneyspace he is well respected. That's why I took it to him for this year's annual. I am just doing my due diligence and making sure 13K is reasonable instead of opening my checkbook off of blind trust. 

Well if it is a MSC and you are in East Texas per your avatar, then I would assume you took it to D-Max.  I do not think there are many on this forum that would not take him for his word on estimated costs associated with the repair. 

If you already are in for 60K, it would be a shame to walk away now.  If this plane is at D-Max, when he is through you will have a safe Mooney that I am sure will take care of you in flight.

[Janderson1235]

2 hours ago, carusoam said:

A few ideas...

1) I'm trying to be helpful.  I'm not always very good at it.  But, I try to get it it right.  

2) Newbie indicates you showed up here without posting much.  It doesn't imply anything about your level of ownership or aviation experience, of how much you have read here.  We have a few newbies that have decades of Mooney experience.  They just don't post very much...

3) Some MSCs are better than others.  But, none are known to be terrible.  Search for the one you are using...  use the search box at the top of the page.  Searchable words need to be at least three or four letters long...

4) PPIs are great for identifying what needs to be done before embarking on such a long road.  There are a few steps that can be followed prior to purchase for your protection.

5) The PPI is for your wallet's protection.  It can also be helpful in building a work list and a quote for all the steps that need to be done to get the plane in AW condition.  A second list of nice to have items I'd often generated at the same time...

6) I am going to guess a few things...  not everyone wants to walk into a room and introduce themselves and talk about giant sums of dough...

7) You have your grandpa's plane that has some meaning to you.  Admirable idea, yes.  Affordable, only you can tell.

8) You are in TX.  A great place for Mooney ownership.

9) You can't use the plane in a non-AW condition.  Missing tubes is pretty much an AW issue.

10) If you are at KGGG, you have found the Mecca of Mooney Maintenance.  If you are not, why keep it a secret...?

11) If you want to move a plane that is not AW, that would require a ferry permit.

12) You are in for 60AMU already.

13) you are 24.  Can you afford to keep going with this project?

14) If you can't afford to keep going, can you get most of your 60AMU back out?

15) Un-AW planes sell for a deep discount over identical but AW alternatives.

16) If you need to sell, it may be better to fix it to AW condition before selling.  

17) Selling it will take effort, cost and a lot of time usually. This is financial risk management at it's best.

18) The engine is always a concern.  Not running for years is terrible for it's health.  If part of the 60AMU included an OH, you want to be aware of how to maintain it's health while it isn't flying.

19) Find the thread by Alex.  He is a young buck getting a Mooney back in flying condition.  He started a thread and has been following it through....

20) Make sure you are using the search function to learn about corrosion.  It is covered in many ways around here.  The worst cases are engine cam lobes, wing spars and fuselage tubes.  They happen very infrequently.  But, if you are the holder of the bag, you won't be happy knowing how infrequent it is.

21) Make sure you know how much everything is going to cost to reach the goal you have in mind.  Don't keep spending money, until you know it is going to get you where you want to be.

22) For perspective...   When I was 24, I had goals that included a plane but had no money to execute them.  It took a decade to go by, then I bought a used up M20C...  an M20J is a 2X expense compared to an M20C.  But their maintenance costs are about the same...

23) more on perspective... my son is coming up on your age.

I hope this is helpful in determining the steps required to get you where you want to go...  and why it may appear difficult when other guys seem to be breezing through spending money on avionics upgrades...  know that there are young guys with plenty of dough to do what you are doing.  Texas is a wonderful place to be!

Keep in mind, I am only a PP.  Not a mechanic.  I am only trying to help get you up to speed on Mooney airplanes...  That's what we do around here.

Best regards,

-a-

Thank you for your advice, I appreciate it.

To answer your questions,

2) Yeah I am not the most experienced aviator, I have been flying for three years and I have my instrument rating. I trained in a 172 and have flown nothing but my mooney ever since.

3) I didn't want to use names just in case I was given a dishonest quote, but yes I am at D-Max because according to this forum he is the best. I saw a thread in my research of him where a guy wrote a smear post of him and he got eviscerated by many people that backed up Don. So of course I am not here to start problems, I just want to know if 13K sounds right for a wing removal and quick fix of a hole in the steel tubular.

4-5) Yeah, I will definitely get a PPI next time. If I have to part out my plane I think I will want to go partner on a 252. I wanna go fast!

7) It is cool that it was my late grandfathers plane, but at some point if the trend continues I will run out of money to pour into it.

11) Don said that I would not be able to get a ferry permit because the problem I have is structural. I already knew this from another thread here. A guy had spar corrosion and tried to get a ferry permit and couldn't, so he had to take a hack saw to it... Very sad and I don't want that at all.

13) I am 27 now. I am single and have a solid job as an engineer so that's how I am able to do this, barely. Every dime I make eventually finds it's way into this plane. I call it my aluminum wife. I figured that after putting in a new engine that I would be out of the woods but clearly not...

14) I don't think so. I think I would maybe see 30-35k for parting it out, but I have no experience with selling aircraft parts let alone parting out a plane. Hopefully if it comes to that Don can help me out.

19) I'll find his threads for sure!

20) oh yeah, I'll be blasting corrosionX into it every year from now on.

21) that's the stage i'm at now, i'm having Don evaluate the airframe to make sure that if I give the go-ahead to take the wing off, that they won't find anything else that will cost more money. In other words, make sure the plane is worth the repair.

 

 

 

Edited October 20, 2016 by Janderson1235

[carusoam]

My memory isn't the strongest...

But the thread where somebody was surprised at how much things cost to get things done at Don's shop stands out.  It probably started by a person with minimal aviation experience comparing it to non-regulated things like working on his own car.

You have taken a very sick plane to see the savior, he gives you a price for what it is going to cost...

what else can you do?

you can approach another MSC with your photos and ask them to quote the work based on that.  It is always acceptable practice to get a second opinion.

Find out anyone that has done this without using an MSC.  There have been a few discussions regarding how to replace tubes.  Major surgery without using an MSC puts the plane at a lower level when it is time to sell.  (Eyes of the buyer is what's important then)

compare your written quotes (privately).  Make sure the work is going to be completed.  Key words are something like...I'm paying this much to have the plane in AW condition, with this specific work details completed in this shop.  Follow it up with a question like, am I missing anything...?

About my experience with Don.  I sent a plane to him for a PPI. The plane costs as much as my house. I relied on him to do a job that I am technically unable.  He gave me two lists.  One AW list and one non-AW list...  the AW list was pre-negotiated into the price with the seller.  The non-AW list was mine to make changes with.

It's been about five years.  Don did exactly what I asked for, at the agreed price, and as a bonus, educated me on a few Mooney details along the way.

Make sure the price you get covers everything.  Don't pay for fixing the tube frame without making sure that the spars are 100%...

That would be sending good money after bad without looking.

You are the engineer.  This is an ordinary machine economics challenge.  Identify all the costs to return this plane to it's rightful AW condition... then tackle it one step at a time.  In the mean time look up keeping the engine active and keeping the plane covered if it is sitting outside for an extended period of time.

Then find another Texas engineer that likes Mooneys and marry her.  I've seen this work before...

A few people around here have gotten their planes first, then got married.  Find the photos of the honeymoon trips via Mooney.

There are a bunch of engineers here as well.

Best regards,

-a-

 

[Janderson1235]

Again, I really appreciate your advice.

Indeed I have taken a sick plane to the savior, he is after all the only person to have found the corrosion that has clearly been there a long time. And don't get me wrong, I have met Don quite a bit now and he seems to be a super guy and really knows his stuff. I'm just simply trying to get some confirmation that 13k is really the standard rate for fixing my corrosion issue. Although I am young to aviation, at this point I am quite familiar with how expensive everything is. I spend a grand on getting a used transponder after my narko went out. Those things are essentially vacuum tube technology, and when you compare that to say an iPhone that costs half that, no wonder general aviation is dying. And if the insane cost does not kill it, cheap self driving cars will... It makes me sick. I just want to fly.

I don't have a problem keeping that engine running, this past year I have logged almost 200 hours. I fly all the time.

If I can keep this Mooney in the air then maybe one day I'll use it for a honeymoon!

Thanks,

[DaV8or]

23 hours ago, kpaul said:

Well if it is a MSC and you are in East Texas per your avatar, then I would assume you took it to D-Max.  I do not think there are many on this forum that would not take him for his word on estimated costs associated with the repair. 

If you already are in for 60K, it would be a shame to walk away now.  If this plane is at D-Max, when he is through you will have a safe Mooney that I am sure will take care of you in flight.

The only thing I will add as a bright spot is, if you have to undergo a repair like this, having D-Max doing the logbook entry looks really good at resale time. It does suck though that now his plane is basically held hostage by the FAA. Like I said in the other thread, $13,000 is likely about what it will cost at any MSC in the country. He might be able to find some other mechanic to take it on for less money, but buyer beware in that case. Do your due diligence for sure.

[DaV8or]

22 hours ago, Janderson1235 said:

 

13) I am 27 now. I am single and have a solid job as an engineer so that's how I am able to do this, barely. Every dime I make eventually finds it's way into this plane. I call it my aluminum wife. I figured that after putting in a new engine that I would be out of the woods but clearly not...

You didn't say what kind of engineer you were, but if you're good with tools, have you considered taking on the job yourself as project? The upside is you would save most of that $13,000 for yourself. The down side is your plane will likely be down for months as you would have to do this work in your free time and you have never done it before.

[Janderson1235]

2 hours ago, DaV8or said:

You didn't say what kind of engineer you were, but if you're good with tools, have you considered taking on the job yourself as project? The upside is you would save most of that $13,000 for yourself. The down side is your plane will likely be down for months as you would have to do this work in your free time and you have never done it before.

I am a petroleum engineer, but I am good with tools and can swing wrenches with the best of them. I have no doubt I could do this job myself but I can neither get a ferry permit to move it to my hanger, nor can I take months for it to get finished as I need this plane. I have got both personal and business things that are going on in Oklahoma, West Texas and New Mexico. If I had my way I'd just shove a MIG welder up there, do an ugly but effective weld job, paint it, and call it good. But big bro FAA wouldn't like that, nor would the next buyer.

Edited October 21, 2016 by Janderson1235

[DaV8or]

On October 21, 2016 at 0:30 PM, Janderson1235 said:

I am a petroleum engineer, but I am good with tools and can swing wrenches with the best of them. I have no doubt I could do this job myself but I can neither get a ferry permit to move it to my hanger, nor can I take months for it to get finished as I need this plane. I have got both personal and business things that are going on in Oklahoma, West Texas and New Mexico. If I had my way I'd just shove a MIG welder up there, do an ugly but effective weld job, paint it, and call it good. But big bro FAA wouldn't like that, nor would the next buyer.

Understood. Maybe you can write it off as a business expense? 

[kerry]

Just curious.  Does anyone know of any in flight air frame failures do to this kind of corrosion.

[carusoam]

Air frame failures from thunderstorms, yes.  That's with all the structural strength available.

If you haven't seen your steel tubes before, it would be good to know how they are...

There is an SB that covers how to do it and what insulation should be removed.

This would be similar to riding a bicycle with a missing or corroded tube.  You could get away with it, mostly...

Best regards,

-a-

[co2bruce]

D Max is the best place you can be. With a repair like this, experience is everything. Only you can decide if it's financially worth it.