sleepingsquirrel Posted July 27, 2011 Report Share Posted July 27, 2011 I like Parker's reasoning. I'm new to the Mooney line and it's just so fast to accelerate that if I'm not careful to retract the gear after breaking ground , I find I have to make an effort to slow down to get the gear up. I am self insured and believe that in the event of an engine failure on take off a gear up landing is a safe landing. Just expensive. I'll go with get the gear up on positive rate of climb. We're out'a hear! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadrach Posted July 27, 2011 Report Share Posted July 27, 2011 Quote: jerry-N5911Q OK, suppose I depart KMHR with its 11,300 feet of runway. At 200 AGL there is nearly two miles of pavement still ahead so should I drag the gear that whole distance? If I depart South Lake Tahoe at an 8800' density altitude (and I have), I may pull the gear up at 50 AGL because all the ROC I can get won't be much. One needs a set of guidelines, not a single jingo for all cases. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Pleisse Posted July 27, 2011 Report Share Posted July 27, 2011 Quote: jerry-N5911Q If I depart South Lake Tahoe at an 8800' density altitude (and I have), I may pull the gear up at 50 AGL because all the ROC I can get won't be much. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Pleisse Posted July 27, 2011 Report Share Posted July 27, 2011 Quote: jerry-N5911Q OK, suppose I depart KMHR with its 11,300 feet of runway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hank Posted July 27, 2011 Report Share Posted July 27, 2011 Does anybody have a POH handy to cite normal ops and short-soft ops? I have electric gear. Wish I had the J-Bar. I'd have the gear up a lot quicker with the J-Bar. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Pleisse Posted July 27, 2011 Report Share Posted July 27, 2011 Quote: Hank why do you not raise your electric gear as soon as you would manual gear? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaV8or Posted July 27, 2011 Report Share Posted July 27, 2011 Quote: Hank Question: why do you not raise your electric gear as soon as you would manual gear? Get her in the air, raise the wheels--it's just a little switch to move, should be easier and faster than swinging the J-bar . . . My gear is up well before the end of our 3000' field, usually before 50' agl, just as soon as I'm comfortable that I'm actually going up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jetdriven Posted July 29, 2011 Report Share Posted July 29, 2011 I'm with Parker on this one. A clean airplane climbs faster and when an engine quits, it is higher than one which didnt put up the gear quickly. That pilot has more options. Positive rate: gear up. If i have to make a forced landing, I am going to evaluate the terrain and decide to land gear up or down. It doesnt matter anyways, its insured. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Pleisse Posted August 2, 2011 Report Share Posted August 2, 2011 Ahhhhhh yes......."Positive Rate", that tatooed P-T-S catch phrase that is more applicable for flap retraction, than gear. "Positive Rate", that little cue from years of banging the PTS into your brain, that doesn't exist in a Jepp Book, AC-6121A (Flight Training Handbook) or a published Mooney POH gear procedure (J or earlier). In fact, the opposite. Allowable runway. I think I actually read a post on this thread that suggested "Positive Rate" occurs at about 100 feet agl. Well, what kind of rate did you have to get to 100 agl? I just sayin'. "Rate" is a function of "time" (in the case of this thriving discussion about gear, 2-4 seconds), not a common sense assesment of what lies in front of you and should not be a stopwatch for gear retraction. Use your noggin and save yourself a little runway. Sorry..."positive rate" is a little peeve of mine. And I am still lovin' the Johnson Bar, that cleaver invention that makes most of this thread moot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaV8or Posted August 2, 2011 Report Share Posted August 2, 2011 I think positive rate of climb occurs as soon as you leave ground effect. So what, maybe 10-30 feet off the ground? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sleepingsquirrel Posted August 2, 2011 Report Share Posted August 2, 2011 Quote: N4352H I think I actually read a post on this thread that suggested "Positive Rate" occurs at about 100 feet agl. Well, what kind of rate did you have to get to 100 agl? I just sayin'. Sorry..."positive rate" is a little peeve of mine. And I am still lovin' the Johnson Bar, that cleaver invention that makes most of this thread moot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
piperpainter Posted August 2, 2011 Report Share Posted August 2, 2011 Immediately. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Pleisse Posted August 2, 2011 Report Share Posted August 2, 2011 Quote: sleepingsquirrel How about we change the "positive rate of climb" to "when I'm positive I'm climbing"? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scottfromiowa Posted August 2, 2011 Report Share Posted August 2, 2011 J Bar love? Is that like Muskrat or Squirrel Love? Is it wrong? It seems (in looking at video) that Mooney gear cycles much more quickly (whether J bar or Electric) than others. True or not? The brand C wasp gear seems slower to cycle. Three seconds is pretty darn quick. As a member of the GU club I would submit that on an off field landing I'm going gear up. My reasons are-Not getting gear caught and shearing off and quicker potential stop vs. rolling out. Insurance has bought the event and I just want to hopefully walk away. I wonder what if any difference the shorter belly slide with gear up would have made with the recent off airport K landing. I understand saving the plane, but if I'm not landing on a runway I have already decided to go gear up. My slide was minimal and a non-event. I read that landing in trees is better than water(recent article...I'm landing in water over trees. I'd rather drown than burn I guess...A LOT of lakes Up in Northern Wisconsin where I fly a lot. Minimal open fields. A lot of trees and lakes. Hope I never have to do it, but if I do my decision is already made. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Pleisse Posted August 2, 2011 Report Share Posted August 2, 2011 Save yourself a little runway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scottfromiowa Posted August 2, 2011 Report Share Posted August 2, 2011 Or nightmare...to clarify, If I'm landing on a runway (even if sooner than wanted or desired) I choose gear down and locked. No ifs ands or buts. Off airport I'm going in gear up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rbridges Posted August 2, 2011 Report Share Posted August 2, 2011 I have a manual gear and the inner wheel fairings. I'm a fairly strong guy, but if I don't raise the gear within a few seconds of TO, I don't have enough strength unless I nose the plane over. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
airfoill Posted August 2, 2011 Report Share Posted August 2, 2011 I'm with the "immediately up " crowd after takeoff. In addition to the other reasons already listed, my biggest reason is that the electric gear actuator and the gears experience alot less load immediately after takeoff than if you wait until you've accelerated to best rate and wait for the end of usable runway to pull up the gear. Pulling the gear up immediately after takeoff means less stress on gears/actuator which in turn will make them last longer. Oh, and another thing I do just before raising gear is press the brake pedals to stop the wheels turning during the retraction because the gyroscopic forces of the tires after takeoff is eliminated once the main gear stops rotating after brake application....can't stop nosegear rotation, though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fantom Posted August 2, 2011 Report Share Posted August 2, 2011 Quote: N4352H ....I am still lovin' the Johnson Bar, that cleaver invention that makes..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
201er Posted August 2, 2011 Author Report Share Posted August 2, 2011 Speaking of brakes to stop wheel rotation. I'm guilty of never remembering to do that (although read the suggestion in POH). Is there anything bad about not pressing the brakes prior to retracting the gear besides maybe squirting debris into the gear bays? Ok maybe a little gyroscopic force... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Mazer Posted August 3, 2011 Report Share Posted August 3, 2011 The gyroscopic force generates stress on the bearings and structure of the main landing gear only since the nose gear retracts in line with the rotation. Not being able to brake the nose gear is irrelevant since the gyro effect are nill. There is still the slinging of foreign material to consider. I'm not sure how significant the stress is at our takeoff speeds but why add any unnecessary stress? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carusoam Posted August 3, 2011 Report Share Posted August 3, 2011 201er, Check to see what your wheels rub against when they are up. Not touching the brakes may add to wearing out the surface that does stop the rotation of the wheels. -a- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
airfoill Posted August 3, 2011 Report Share Posted August 3, 2011 Quote: Mazerbase Not being able to brake the nose gear is irrelevant since the gyro effect are nill. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
byrdflyr Posted August 3, 2011 Report Share Posted August 3, 2011 Next annual, when your plane is on jacks, watch the gear retraction test. It takes about 1 second for my gear (1966 C with electric "dukes" gear) to fall into place. Say "One Mississippi" and that's the minimum time you actually need to drop the gear. When getting my instrument rating a couple of years ago, my instructor challenged this practice, until he saw how long it takes to drop my gear. But you have to remember to get the gear down if you lost power after getting the gear up and deciding to land on the remaining runway, or another runway in the same environment. I don't know of any other a/c that retracts or puts down the gear as fast as a Mooney. So the CFIs and others out there that are cautious about pulling up the gear with useful runway remaining are right, when they're in an Cardinal, Arrow, or Bonanza. If you needed to put the gear down back down, it would take a while. I'm amazed how long it takes a Bonanza or Barron to retract gear (there are examples on you tube if you search gear retraction test). So I'm of the "positive rate, retract gear" school of thought. If you're on a 8-10k runway, you'll have a mile or more runway underneath your clean belly, but you'll be accellerating and climbing, giving you more safety than gear out would, IMO. I retract flaps at 500 AGL, so usually within 30 or so seconds, I'm clean and climbing at 105 mph or better, assuming there's no T/O minimum or obstacle clearance issues. I live in the mid-south, where airport elevations are typcially under 1000 MSL, and there aren't many terrain issues. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jetdriven Posted August 3, 2011 Report Share Posted August 3, 2011 One more thing to add, a Mooney climbing at 90 MPH that experiences an engine failure with the gear down will lose airspeed so fast that a stall is likely. Try that sometime at altitude. Remember Vy is 105 MPH with the flaps up and around 90 with the flaps down. Also, the lower the airspeed at retraction is the longer your LG actuator will live, I never thought of that. I also am guilty of not braking before putting the wheels up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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