What’s It Worth? 1980J With Missile Conversion

[RogueOne]

I came upon a plane that interests me.  I seek your opinion on value based on “as is” condition.  Here are particulars as I know them:

TT Airframe 4400  1980 J (fixed back seat with leather interior and yokes. Strong paint)  Shows well

Engine: 1700 (run out) since new on engine and prop

Avionics: Dual 430 Non Waas/Auto Pilot/Fuel Totalizer

The bad.  Out of annual and idle for SIX years.  Hangered and engine started periodically

Right tank needs seal.  

Controller has a couple priced in the Mid-High 80’s

What do you think on price?

Edited July 13, 2019 by RogueOne

[Rwsavory]

6 years out of annual?  It’s a collection of parts. Value accordingly. 

[Eight8Victor]

That one has some damage history, but mine does as well. I've been eyeing it for a while also. Let me know if you go check it out, I'd like to see it.

[aviatoreb]

Any structural corrosion? Esp the tubular body and wing spars etc / the stuff you can’t see directly.  Since the engine is a run out that’s not an issue. If it’s clean - and the price is right might be a fantastic plane.

Edited July 12, 2019 by aviatoreb

[Yetti]

Depends on how much corrosion it has

[smccray]

Where has it been sitting?

This is a project. Will be difficult if not impossible to buy it cheap enough to make sense financially. 

Plan on both tanks, gear pucks, and replacing all the avionics. Sitting will kill everything. 

Edited July 12, 2019 by smccray

[larrynimmo]

number one to me is the condition of the frame....remove panel below pilots window and check steel frame for corrosion ….if the frame is eaten up the plane is totaled.

[RogueOne]

Thanks for the replies.  The plane was painted and interior re-done as well as Missile Conversion while in California.  The plane has been idle in a hanger in Iowa.  I have not seen logs or had ANY panels off.  Saw the plane through a business contact while he was showing me his light sport.  He also has an A36 that is having a panel re-done.  The plane was flown by a Corporate pilot for/with the owner.  Bought another plane that the owner now plans to sell through a broker.  I am in Iowa.  

Here is my thinking: If the plane passes an inspection with tubular and spar inspected for corrosion and it is “clear” a run out 201 is 60-70k right?  This has immaculate paint/interior and solid avionics...THAT have been spun up intermittently with engine starts.

I don’t see how I could do this for more than $70k.  Any hours before overhaul on prop and engine are “Free”.  Tanks will be 10-15K, Donuts another $1500.  If it needs overhaul now $40k I would pass.  Otherwise I would be tempted and do instruments as they fail.  ADSB is another $5k looming.  What do you all think?

[RogueOne]

You guys running into a lot of J’s that are toast?  This plane was painted and interior re-done THEN it was in Midwest for duration and hangered.  I am NOT worried about corrosion in the airframe from the six years.  It WILL be inspected, but I am not expecting this to be the deal-breaker.  The likely deal-breaker will be a broker saying he can get THIS amount and it is going to be more than the idle run out engine/airframe are truly worth.  He paid $110k when acquired and has done nothing but fly it to overhaul and let it sit...

[RogueOne]

1 hour ago, Eight8Victor said:

That one has some damage history, but mine does as well. I've been eyeing it for a while also. Let me know if you go check it out, I'd like to see it.

I just looked at the plane on Controller.  I am talking about a different Missile.  It is based in Iowa.  It is not listed anywhere yet.

[MIm20c]

Some C’s are asking in the 70’s. My guess is the broker is going to put a higher value on it. Also if you are trying to keep this one on the DL you might want to reduce the amount of info given. It took me less than 3 mins to locate the owner and PO Box.  Many on this site will be able to act faster having gone through the process many times, just a heads up. Good luck!

[smccray]

26 minutes ago, RogueOne said:

 I don’t see how I could do this for more than $70k.  Any hours before overhaul on prop and engine are “Free”.  Tanks will be 10-15K, Donuts another $1500.  If it needs overhaul now $40k I would pass.  Otherwise I would be tempted and do instruments as they fail.  ADSB is another $5k looming.  What do you all think?

I would value the plane with a run out engine.  Very possible the plane will pass annual inspection, then the engine will start showing its age in 25-50 hours.  I'm parroting stories from others here- I don't have the personal experience.

By the time you add up the cost of ADSB, clean-ups of the king instruments, adding an engine monitor, you're a long way down the path to adding glass.

• $40K for the engine
• $8-10K for accessories and work associated with the engine
• $16K for tanks and pucks
• $40K for avionics,  (Upgrade the GNS430s to WAAS, more for GTNs).  You could skip the panel, but the money you put into avionics repairs will only be expense.  You'll spend $10K minimum for ADSB, engine monitor, and repairs.  Scratch that- $15K minimum.
• $XXk Margin for error?

In the end you have a plane worth $120-130K

[aviatoreb]

7 minutes ago, smccray said:

I would value the plane with a run out engine.  Very possible the plane will pass annual inspection, then the engine will start showing its age in 25-50 hours.  I'm parroting stories from others here- I don't have the personal experience.

By the time you add up the cost of ADSB, clean-ups of the king instruments, adding an engine monitor, you're a long way down the path to adding glass.

• $40K for the engine
• $8-10K for accessories and work associated with the engine
• $16K for tanks and pucks
• $40K for avionics,  (Upgrade the GNS430s to WAAS, more for GTNs).  You could skip the panel, but the money you put into avionics repairs will only be expense.  You'll spend $10K minimum for ADSB, engine monitor, and repairs.  Scratch that- $15K minimum.
• $XXk Margin for error?

In the end you have a plane worth $120-130K

But by then it’s a pristine plane with new engine etc and a very nice model.  Could work!

[smccray]

3 minutes ago, aviatoreb said:

But by then it’s a pristine plane with new engine etc and a very nice model.  Could work!

  if the seller will accept $30-40K for the plane.  Offer the seller $45K- if he doesn't throw you out, settle in the low $50s (subject only to airframe corrosion inspection) and take the plane home.  You don't need a pre-buy- you're going in only buying the airframe.

[smccray]

31 minutes ago, MIm20c said:

Some C’s are asking in the 70’s. My guess is the broker is going to put a higher value on it. Also if you are trying to keep this one on the DL you might want to reduce the amount of info given. It took me less than 3 mins to locate the owner and PO Box.  Many on this site will be able to act faster having gone through the process many times, just a heads up. Good luck!

 Agree.  3 min is about right.  2 minutes more you can find the owner's name and contact info.  

[jkarch]

Yup, just the airframe on this plane.  If there's no corrosion you get: New pucks($2500 ), tires($300), engine($50K includes firewall forward, Factory Reman, Core Exchange), instruments, avionics $40K, and repaired fuel tanks $8k by weep no more.  So basically a $100K investment, meaning for a 4400 hour airframe it's worth $25K with minimal corrosion.  But we all know someone won't take $25k for it, it will go for $40-50K, so you'll lose 15-25K of the value of the stuff you put into it because it will be worth $130K when done.  If you're looking for a project, you've found one.  Any engine that has sat for 6 years and "run" occasionally on the ground is a bad cam magnet.  Pickled engine properly protected is one thing, but 6 years of ground runs is bye bye engine.  My M20J's engine sat 3-5 months in California on the coast 8 years ago, with minimal flights, finally the bad cam syndrome caught up with it.

Edited July 12, 2019 by jkarch

[RogueOne]

46 minutes ago, MIm20c said:

Some C’s are asking in the 70’s. My guess is the broker is going to put a higher value on it. Also if you are trying to keep this one on the DL you might want to reduce the amount of info given. It took me less than 3 mins to locate the owner and PO Box.  Many on this site will be able to act faster having gone through the process many times, just a heads up. Good luck!

Oh well.  I think this is a pipe dream anyway.  Jeez people are awesome.  (Sarcasm)

[smccray]

Just now, RogueOne said:

Oh well.  I think this is a pipe dream anyway.  Jeez people are awesome.  (Sarcasm)

Hell no it's not a pipe dream.  Go make him an offer- nothing ventured nothing gained.  Who knows- maybe he'll be happy just getting the thing gone.  You can own it by Monday.

[RogueOne]

14 minutes ago, smccray said:

 Agree.  3 min is about right.  2 minutes more you can find the owner's name and contact info.  

This isn’t a treasure hunt.  Just PM me if you have loads of cash and must have this plane.  I will help you out.  (Not sarcasm)

[RogueOne]

7 minutes ago, jkarch said:

Yup, just the airframe on this plane.  If there's no corrosion you get: New pucks($2500 ), tires($300), engine($50K includes firewall forward, Factory Reman, Core Exchange), instruments, avionics $40K, interior?, and paint, and repaired fuel tanks $8k by weep no more.  So basically a $100K investment, meaning for a 4400 hour airframe it's worth $25K with minimal corrosion.  If you're looking for a project, you've found one.  Any engine that has sat for 6 years and "run" occasionally on the ground is a bad cam magnet.  Pickled engine properly protected is one thing, but 6 years of ground runs is bye bye engine.  My M20J's engine sat 3-5 months in California on the coast 8 years ago, with minimal flights, finally the bad cam syndrome caught up with it.

Yup, that pretty much sums it up.  I think the avionics would function much better than portrayed and could certainly be refurbed on the gyros.  Discounting heavily on the engine. At by in.  My discussion with owner would be this is where I am and why.  Pretty sure he will say pound sand, but you never know.  I know the guys pilot and his college room-mate.  I am not looking for charity, but I will not overpay for an airframe and power plant that need a lot of work.

My question still has not been answered.

What would you offer on the plane based on the knowns?

[RogueOne]

58 minutes ago, MIm20c said:

Some C’s are asking in the 70’s. My guess is the broker is going to put a higher value on it. Also if you are trying to keep this one on the DL you might want to reduce the amount of info given. It took me less than 3 mins to locate the owner and PO Box.  Many on this site will be able to act faster having gone through the process many times, just a heads up. Good luck!

PM me the info.  I will tell you if it’s a BINGO.  Plane is in Iowa.  Owner is NOT.

[smccray]

5 minutes ago, RogueOne said:

This isn’t a treasure hunt.  Just PM me if you have loads of cash and must have this plane.  I will help you out.  (Not sarcasm)

Hell- I'm far enough underwater on my current plane.  I don't need to do another one for a few years :).

It's a treasure hunt.  Truth be told I didn't go looking until after I saw @Mlm20c's post.  Then it just became a competition and I couldn't resist.

True story- broker brought me my current plane.  Described with the same information available in this thread- model year and state.  There was only one in NJ when I went looking.  It didn't matter as I wouldn't cut the guy out, but still.  It was fun- kind of dangling a carrot in front of me...

2 minutes ago, RogueOne said:

PM me the info.  I will tell you if it’s a BINGO.  Plane is in Iowa.  Owner is NOT.

oooo- good twist!!!  I really hope you can make the plane work.

[RogueOne]

55 minutes ago, smccray said:

I would value the plane with a run out engine.  Very possible the plane will pass annual inspection, then the engine will start showing its age in 25-50 hours.  I'm parroting stories from others here- I don't have the personal experience.

By the time you add up the cost of ADSB, clean-ups of the king instruments, adding an engine monitor, you're a long way down the path to adding glass.

• $40K for the engine
• $8-10K for accessories and work associated with the engine
• $16K for tanks and pucks
• $40K for avionics,  (Upgrade the GNS430s to WAAS, more for GTNs).  You could skip the panel, but the money you put into avionics repairs will only be expense.  You'll spend $10K minimum for ADSB, engine monitor, and repairs.  Scratch that- $15K minimum.
• $XXk Margin for error?

In the end you have a plane worth $120-130K

I agree with all EXCEPT the avionics.  Way high here.  The engine monitor/auto pilot/Garmins/engine gauges are likely FINE.  The Gyro’s?  Agree.  I did ADSB for under 5k in my E...Not arguing just giving my input/thoughts on avionics.  We can wait on the WAAS upgrades.  I would likely NOT tie in the ADSB to the 430’s.  Good experience with Apple and a 696.

[RogueOne]

EVERYTHING has been really helpful and appreciated.  More input on what to offer for price ALSO appreciated.  Help me spend the money.  A well sorted E will be on the market if it “goes down”

 

[carusoam]

One cool factor... the 430s May be old but there is a slide in replacement by that other company that can make good use out of the old install...

See the thread that has the radio and transponder deals... gets the 2020 challenge out of the way...

modern equipment and 2020 capable...

Got pics of the M20E?  Might have one ready just to get that other part of the discussion going...

Best regards,

-a-