MikeOH Posted July 7, 2019 Report Posted July 7, 2019 Do I have to drain ALL fuel out or is there some level (gallons remaining) where I can pull the sender without fuel pouring into the cabin? 1970 M20F Thanks! Quote
M20F Posted July 7, 2019 Report Posted July 7, 2019 Others will come along to answer specific question. If I were personally working on a tank I would want it drained and vented. Quote
carusoam Posted July 7, 2019 Report Posted July 7, 2019 Technically you can leave plenty of fuel in there that won’t come out... until, after the fire accidentally starts... This becomes a two prong challenge... 1) being in the cabin while replacing seals and hardware... (when the flames break out) 2) Doing The work from outside... (when the flames break out) If it all works out properly, it’s only a few minutes of work... and a couple of hours of get ready time... If you are only doing one side at a time... empty the tank while flying it... Flying while emptying both tanks at the same time adds to the strategic challenges... There are too many Mooney accidents started in maintenance shops...including accidentally burning down the plane and getting severely injured at the same time... Just some PP logic to consider in the planning stage... Best regards, -a- Quote
MikeOH Posted July 7, 2019 Author Report Posted July 7, 2019 Appreciate the advice. It seems to me the ignition hazard is pretty much the same (ignition of fumes)...just when only fumes explode there isn't a further fire! Quote
gsxrpilot Posted July 7, 2019 Report Posted July 7, 2019 Drain the tank, then pull the sump out to finish draining the tank. Let it sit for a little while with the cap off and the sump out. The vapors will dissipate quickly. Quote
N201MKTurbo Posted July 7, 2019 Report Posted July 7, 2019 You can drain the fuel out of one tank and put it in the other if they are not completely full. Go to the farm store and get a big galvanized funnel with a screen and two metal 5 gallon buckets. Stick the funnel in the other tank. Place the two buckets under the wing and unscrew the sump drain. When one bucket gets about 1/2 full slide the second bucket under and pour the fuel into the other tank. Make sure you have enough room in the tank! I made a fitting with hardware store parts that screws into the sump drain hole to make a better stream of fuel and so it doesn't run all over the bottom of the wing and into the belly. I do it outside, not in the hangar. I have a 55 gallon drum for fuel and a Harbor Freight hand crank barrel pump. I loaned this arrangement to a guy at the airport and he put a length of hose on the outlet pipe, stuck it into his tank and cranked the pump backwards. He got all but 4 gallons out of his tank. 2 Quote
Hank Posted July 8, 2019 Report Posted July 8, 2019 13 hours ago, N201MKTurbo said: You can drain the fuel out of one tank and put it in the other if they are not completely full. Go to the farm store and get a big galvanized funnel with a screen and two metal 5 gallon buckets. Stick the funnel in the other tank. Place the two buckets under the wing and unscrew the sump drain. When one bucket gets about 1/2 full slide the second bucket under and pour the fuel into the other tank. Make sure you have enough room in the tank! I made a fitting with hardware store parts that screws into the sump drain hole to make a better stream of fuel and so it doesn't run all over the bottom of the wing and into the belly. I do it outside, not in the hangar. For God's sake, if you're gonna use plastic buckets and tubs, please please please ground them!!! Flowing gasoline creates static electricity, which will start a fire without an "ignition source." 1 Quote
N201MKTurbo Posted July 8, 2019 Report Posted July 8, 2019 1 hour ago, Hank said: For God's sake, if you're gonna use plastic buckets and tubs, please please please ground them!!! Flowing gasoline creates static electricity, which will start a fire without an "ignition source." Who said anything about plastic? I specifically said to get metal buckets. 1 Quote
Hank Posted July 8, 2019 Report Posted July 8, 2019 12 minutes ago, N201MKTurbo said: Who said anything about plastic? I specifically said to get metal buckets. I saw metal funnel but missed metal buckets. An extra warning never hurt anyone who misread or didn't remember. Quote
neilpilot Posted July 8, 2019 Report Posted July 8, 2019 While metal is best, you can safely use plastic so long as the fuel flow rate is low and liquid isn’t allowed to free fall more than a few inches. You can use a cheap throwaway siphoned hose, and remove most of the fuel from the top of the tank before removing the drain fitting. https://www.walmart.com/ip/Siphon-Pump/528731964?wmlspartner=wlpa&selectedSellerId=0&adid=22222222227272442629&wl0=&wl1=g&wl2=t&wl3=327864416867&wl4=aud-566049426705:pla-617098812867&wl5=9011682&wl6=&wl7=&wl8=&wl9=pla&wl10=8175035&wl11=online&wl12=528731964&veh=sem&gclid=CjwKCAjw04vpBRB3EiwA0Iieajc9KH2vf3NnNIBcux1OUDLBWXMPn_VvHg0-A6dhICX5MvNugw2RzhoCM30QAvD_BwE Quote
ArtVandelay Posted July 8, 2019 Report Posted July 8, 2019 If the bucket is on the ground, and I can’t imagine it being anywhere else, is it not grounded? Also, it’s not the gas that ignites, it’s the vapors. You can put a match out in gasoline.It’s more important to do this in open air, don’t try this in a closed hangar. Tom Quote
neilpilot Posted July 8, 2019 Report Posted July 8, 2019 16 minutes ago, ArtVandelay said: If the bucket is on the ground, and I can’t imagine it being anywhere else, is it not grounded? Also, it’s not the gas that ignites, it’s the vapors. You can put a match out in gasoline.It’s more important to do this in open air, don’t try this in a closed hangar. Tom A plastic bucket on the ground isn’t grounded since it isn’t conducive. Also, technically you don’t need grounding, you need bonding to the aircraft structure. Quote
Gary0747 Posted July 8, 2019 Report Posted July 8, 2019 You do need an ignition source and that can be a static spark or other. A hot surface around 550 degrees F can cause auto ignition of the vapor if it is within the flammability range of 1.5 percent to 7.5 percent gasoline vapor in air. Outside this range it will not ignite. The required energy of a spark is around 0.8 mj. This is about 60 times greater than the MIE for hydrogen, ala the Hindenburg. An empty gasoline tank containing residual vapors is more hazardous in terms of likely hood to ignite than a full tank because the vapor concentration is likely higher than 7.4 percent in the vapor space of a full tank. To be entirely safe empty the tank and purge all residual vapors. Quote
Hank Posted July 8, 2019 Report Posted July 8, 2019 More than one plane has burned in its hangar while defueling into plastic gas cans. 1 Quote
TheTurtle Posted July 9, 2019 Report Posted July 9, 2019 you just have to do it really fast so you dont spill any. Quote
cliffy Posted July 9, 2019 Report Posted July 9, 2019 Any time you defuel into a bucket the fumes flow out of the bucket and down regardless of the drain rate. Can sliding a metal bucket across a cement or asphalt floor cause a spark? Does pouring a bucket of fuel into the tank opening let vapors flow all over the wing and down to the ground? Properly bonded fuel drain buckets come with a metal rod inside the bucket and a bonding cable attached so as to bond bucket to something else. Non-bonded buckets (metal or plastic) have issues to deal with. Why do we bond the fuel truck to the airplane when we refuel? Why is draining into a bucket any different? Many airports require line service personnel to attend fuel handling school Coming from too many years doing line service and fueling from 747s on down 1 Quote
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