Tach Time During Annual Inspection

[David_H]

13 hours ago, 1964-M20E said:

Did they change the oil?

The oil was changed.

13 hours ago, 1964-M20E said:

Look at the log book entries to see if they ran the engine and inspected for any leaks.

Log book entries state that the engine was run-up and inspected for leaks.

It was a toasty 30 degrees when I went out to the airport this evening to perform the Cleveland Brake lining break-in procedures and static brake check. It took a little time to let the engine oil temps come up before cycling the Prop for the run-up. I was told they didn't have a pilot available to perform the Brake Lining break-in and that they just forgot to mention it.

The Tach properly recorded time during yesterday's flight as well as today's time on the engine just as it always does... making sure every second is assigned a dollar value.

[David_H]

48 minutes ago, Andy95W said:

I stand corrected!  This is the best point and answers the question.  Per FAR 43 Appendix D:

(3) Internal engine - for cylinder compression and for metal particles or foreign matter on screens and sump drain plugs. If there is weak cylinder compression, for improper internal condition and improper internal tolerances.

Since you can't inspect the filters and screens without draining the oil, you really can't do an annual inspection without doing an oil change.  (I suppose you could put the old oil back in, but that's kind of dumb.)

If the above it true and the oil isn't changed during the Annual, then how can an AI sign off on the inspection? This seems like something that would be basic knowledge for an AI if this is indeed the case.

[MB65E]

Screens will require inspection. 

It all depends on how your tach is set up too.

-Matt

[Andy95W]

10 hours ago, David_H said:

If the above it true and the oil isn't changed during the Annual, then how can an AI sign off on the inspection? This seems like something that would be basic knowledge for an AI if this is indeed the case.

That's the point, the IA can't sign off the annual inspection without inspecting the filter screens for metal particles or foreign matter.  It took reading that section to remind that.

I wonder how other A&P/IAs besides me interpret that portion of FAR 43 App. D?

[gsxrpilot]

I'll just say if you're on MooneySpace second guessing or checking up on your shop... you've got the wrong shop. If I couldn't trust the shop doing my annual... I'd be hesitant to fly the plane and would certainly find a different shop. 

[David_H]

30 minutes ago, gsxrpilot said:

I'll just say if you're on MooneySpace second guessing or checking up on your shop... you've got the wrong shop. If I couldn't trust the shop doing my annual... I'd be hesitant to fly the plane and would certainly find a different shop. 

I'd say you're right. There were several things missed that were discovered during my typical pre-flight inspection before departing. The stall warning buzzer was INOP but we were able to get it working before departing. The landing light was also INOP. These simple things caused me to take a closer look at the Annual to see what else didn't make sense.

It's fairly obvious that this shop didn't use the S&M manual to do the inspection. It would have been almost impossible to miss the things they did if they were using the Manual. The Annual sign-off did state that they used the S&M Manual. Arguing with the shop would be non-productive.

This was the first time we had let this shop do an Annual on the plane and in hindsight can see this was a poor decision. This wasn't a typical $2K annual and was quite expensive. We'll probably bite the bullet and take the plane to another shop to see what else was missed. Hopefully this shop doesn't get someone hurt.

Edited March 8, 2019 by David_H

[gsxrpilot]

1 minute ago, David_H said:

I'd say you're right. There were several things missed that were discovered during my typical pre-flight inspection before departing. The stall warning buzzer was INOP but we were able to get it working before departing. The landing light was also INOP. These simple things caused me to take a closer look at the Annual to see what else didn't make sense.

It's fairly obvious that this shop didn't use the S&M manual to do the inspection. It would have been almost impossible to miss the things they did if they were using the Manual. The Annual sign-off did state that they used the S&M Manual. Arguing with the shop would be non-productive.

This was the first time we had let this shop do an Annual on the plane and in hindsight can see this was a poor decision. This wasn't a typical $2K annual and was quite expensive. We'll probably bite the bullet and take the plane to another shop to see what else was missed. Hopefully they won't get someone hurt.

Ouch, that sucks. It took me a little while to find a good shop. And now that I've found one, I'm hesitant to let anyone else touch my Mooney.

I remember I was surprised when I talked to Mooney owners on both the west coast and east coast who take their Mooneys all the way to Longview, TX for their annuals every year. I'm no longer surprised by that. And even though I'll have relocated to Denver by the time my annual is due in August, I'll bring her back to SWTA in Smithville, TX for the annual.

[Bryan]

Reputation goes a long way.  I guess that is why I over-flew so many shops and the inconvience of having to get back to get my annual done out of state.

[David_H]

18 minutes ago, gsxrpilot said:

even though I'll have relocated to Denver by the time my annual is due in August, I'll bring her back to SWTA in Smithville, TX for the annual.

Flying to a good shop that you can trust to provide a quality Annual is probably one of the best investments someone could make in their plane. Anyone that laughs about that doesn't know any better.

Edited March 8, 2019 by David_H

[Shadrach]

48 minutes ago, David_H said:

I'd say you're right. There were several things missed that were discovered during my typical pre-flight inspection before departing. The stall warning buzzer was INOP but we were able to get it working before departing. The landing light was also INOP. These simple things caused me to take a closer look at the Annual to see what else didn't make sense.

It's fairly obvious that this shop didn't use the S&M manual to do the inspection. It would have been almost impossible to miss the things they did if they were using the Manual. The Annual sign-off did state that they used the S&M Manual. Arguing with the shop would be non-productive.

This was the first time we had let this shop do an Annual on the plane and in hindsight can see this was a poor decision. This wasn't a typical $2K annual and was quite expensive. We'll probably bite the bullet and take the plane to another shop to see what else was missed. Hopefully this shop doesn't get someone hurt.

I am sorry that this has happened to you. I would caution you against flying all over hell and half acre to get an any type of work done.  Whether having an annual done or an engine OH, it is almost always preferable to have work done as locally as possible.  Every shop has issues that slip though the cracks. What separates the best shops form the worst is how they handle an issue after the fact. If you've put a bunch of distance between your home base and your shop, you've already created a logistical headache if there is an issue that necessitates a follow up.

[PT20J]

Agree there is a lot of value in having a mechanic close to home. If one shop does all the maintenance including the annual, it will get to know the airplane and save you money in the long run. I have done most work on my planes under the supervision of an A&P/IA. That way I know what’s going on. 

MSCs as well as every shop are dependent  on the availability of good mechanics which are in short supply. Some of the biggest screwups on my airplanes have been done at a couple of big name MSCs. I’ve also had great work and great advice from the same MSCs. 

Bottom line is find a good Mooney mechanic close to home and stick with them. And get personally involved if you have the time and inclination. 

[EricJ]

The only requirements for an annual are outlined in FAR 43 Appendix D, and they aren't constrained by the manufacturer's annual checklist.   In other words, complying to the manufacturer's annual checklist is not required.  Many do as good practice, but it is not required.   If you want the MM used as the annual checklist, or something other than 43 App D, that should be discussed ahead of time with the IA.  The only requirement is that the items in 43 App D can't be skipped.

 

 

[David_H]

Thanks for the comments everyone.

As stated earlier in the thread, per the EI manual, the R1 Tach does not begin recording until after 1300 RPM. I must admit that I wasn't aware of this. That said, it appears to be possible for the engine to be warmed up below 1300 RPM without registering on the Tach. The Logbook sign-off explicitly states that the Mooney S&M Manual was used. I still fail to understand how the S&M manual could've possibly been followed without showing time on the Tach since several checks require the engine to exceed the threshold RPM.

Many of us do not hold an A&P or AI certificate and depend on the honesty of our Mechanics to professionally do their jobs. When we fill the plane with people and cargo, the safety burden shifts wholly onto the shoulder of the PIC. It's my opinion that one shouldn't be able to go behind a professional shop and find multiple omissions.

[gsxrpilot]

I don't care nearly as much about the regs regarding an annual, as I do about coming out of an annual with an airplane that I am very confident and comfortable to fly with my family in suboptimal conditions such as night IFR. 

With all due respect to the fact that "shit happens", having a great relationship with my shop makes all the difference for me. Complying with the regs is a given for SWTA, it's that extra confidence of knowing JD, Laura, and Chad very well and having a relationship based on trust, friendship, and camaraderie, that makes the difference for me. When my Mooney is released to fly, I know JD would be just as comfortable for Laura to take it for a test flight with little Jeremiah in the back seat.

Of course a fair bit of the relationship is on me to be the best customer they have. That means paying the bill as soon as its presented. Not quibbling about costs, hours, slipped timelines, etc. And of course, always bringing breakfast tacos if I'm going to stop by the shop in the morning or taking the crew to lunch occasionally. I'm their best customer and despite the best efforts of @Bryan, @mike_elliott, @"Chocks", @jgarrison, and many others in the Mooney world, I'll continue to be their best customer and enjoy benefits of such status, hahahahah 

 

[Shadrach]

1 minute ago, gsxrpilot said:

I don't care nearly as much about the regs regarding an annual, as I do about coming out of an annual with an airplane that I am very confident and comfortable to fly with my family in suboptimal conditions such as night IFR. 

With all due respect to the fact that "shit happens", having a great relationship with my shop makes all the difference for me. Complying with the regs is a given for SWTA, it's that extra confidence of knowing JD, Laura, and Chad very well and having a relationship based on trust, friendship, and camaraderie, that makes the difference for me. When my Mooney is released to fly, I know JD would be just as comfortable for Laura to take it for a test flight with little Jeremiah in the back seat.

Of course a fair bit of the relationship is on me to be the best customer they have. That means paying the bill as soon as its presented. Not quibbling about costs, hours, slipped timelines, etc. And of course, always bringing breakfast tacos if I'm going to stop by the shop in the morning or taking the crew to lunch occasionally. I'm their best customer and despite the best efforts of @Bryan, @mike_elliott, @"Chocks", @jgarrison, and many others in the Mooney world, I'll continue to be their best customer and enjoy benefits of such status, hahahahah 

 

It’s good to have a strong and trusted relationship. If you truly believe that your shop is immune to maintenance induced failures, I wish you a long lifetime of the continued luck you’ve enjoyed. To err is human.

[kortopates]

1 minute ago, David_H said:

Thanks for the comments everyone.

As stated earlier in the thread, per the EI manual, the R1 Tach does not begin recording until after 1300 RPM. I must admit that I wasn't aware of this. That said, it appears to be possible for the engine to be warmed up below 1300 RPM without registering on the Tach. The Logbook sign-off explicitly states that the Mooney S&M Manual was used. I still fail to understand how the S&M manual could've possibly been followed without showing time on the Tach since several checks require the engine to exceed the threshold RPM.

Many of us do not hold an A&P or AI certificate and depend on the honesty of our Mechanics to professionally do their jobs. When we fill the plane with people and cargo, the safety burden shifts wholly onto the shoulder of the PIC. It's my opinion that one shouldn't be able to go behind a professional shop and find multiple omissions.

The reference to the S&M manual wasn't for the checklist but how the maintenance was done.The Mooney 100 hr/Annual checklist is a separate document. The SM does include some detailed items though on various maintenance intervals including the 100 hr but is not as complete as the Mooney checklist. A reference to the checklist is not required either.  As @EricJ explained above shops are free to conduct an annual by whatever checklist they want to go. I'd assume Mooney expects MSC to use their checklist as a condition of being recognized as a MSC - but that is a question for Mooney or an MSC. 

With the EI R1 tach I wouldn't expect to see any time added. You can easily warm it up under 1300 and then do a run-up at 1700 in under a minute or two at most.
But an annual to the reg's means nothing more than an annual was completed. Its best to talk to the shop in advance about what their checklist is. One can always discuss using the Mooney Checklist with any IA or shop that is doing your annual - rather than assuming.

[kortopates]

30 minutes ago, Shadrach said:

It’s good to have a strong and trusted relationship. If you truly believe that your shop is immune to maintenance induced failures, I wish you a long lifetime of the continued luck you’ve enjoyed. To err is human.

So true, no shop escapes at least the occasional complaint. As long as annuals and maintenance is done by humans there will be mistakes made and omissions. The very best shops in the country are not immune. It happens.

The best of the best shops though, adopt a QA process of having a second set of eyes check/inspect the work done by another tech. This is really the best defense we have but for the most part only the larger shops can do that. The smaller shops successfully do the same thing with discipline that comes from years of experience of the need to check and re-check their work. I say that because some small shops have some excellent track records as well.

Despite how much you may trust your shop and mechanic for your maintenance I hope you all follow the trust but verify approach. By that I mean we really need to treat every flight right after extensive maintenance as a test flight with crew only. A pilot that picks up his/her  plane after annual, often on the weekend, and launches into low IFR is more than just naive about the risks they're taking. At least do a thorough pre-flight and run-up paying attention to your engine analyzer and then a lap in the pattern VFR to check out the plane; preferably during business hours so the shop can address anything that just popped up and keep everybody happy. (Like @David_H stall horn issue, but David caught it and what he could on the pre-flight which is the point unlike some stories I've read here such as pilot that took to the runway to takeoff without any oil pressure and many more like that....Yeah the shop really screwed up on that one too!). 

Edited March 9, 2019 by kortopates

[gsxrpilot]

24 minutes ago, Shadrach said:

It’s good to have a strong and trusted relationship. If you truly believe that your shop is immune to maintenance induced failures, I wish you a long lifetime of the continued luck you’ve enjoyed. To err is human.

Did you miss this part? 

With all due respect to the fact that "shit happens", 

I'm not naive about it, and you are of course, very correct that human's err all the time, and no one is immune. But all things being equal, I'd rather use a shop where I have a relationship and a history of great service, then one where I'm going to MooneySpace for a second opinion. 

[EricJ]

33 minutes ago, David_H said:

Thanks for the comments everyone.

As stated earlier in the thread, per the EI manual, the R1 Tach does not begin recording until after 1300 RPM. I must admit that I wasn't aware of this. That said, it appears to be possible for the engine to be warmed up below 1300 RPM without registering on the Tach. The Logbook sign-off explicitly states that the Mooney S&M Manual was used. I still fail to understand how the S&M manual could've possibly been followed without showing time on the Tach since several checks require the engine to exceed the threshold RPM.

Many of us do not hold an A&P or AI certificate and depend on the honesty of our Mechanics to professionally do their jobs. When we fill the plane with people and cargo, the safety burden shifts wholly onto the shoulder of the PIC. It's my opinion that one shouldn't be able to go behind a professional shop and find multiple omissions.

What does it say the SM was used for?   It could be that some procedures were used, e.g., rigging the gear during the required gear swing, that have to be done per the SM.   Assuming much beyond that kind of thing may lead to a misunderstanding that is counterproductive.

It is pretty common for annuals to be done that aren't compliant with the factory checklist, so following the factory checklist can't really be considered a standard practice.   What's in the FAR should absolutely be expected, as that's a regulatory requirement, but beyond that if there's something specific that is expected it should be stated ahead of time.  It's certainly reasonable to ask what was actually done or not done, though, and what the statement in the logbook meant regarding using the SM.

[Shadrach]

9 hours ago, gsxrpilot said:

Did you miss this part? 

With all due respect to the fact that "shit happens", 

I'm not naive about it, and you are of course, very correct that human's err all the time, and no one is immune. But all things being equal, I'd rather use a shop where I have a relationship and a history of great service, then one where I'm going to MooneySpace for a second opinion. 

I misread the context as being the “shit that happens” to the rest of us.

I trust my doc, but I’d still get a second opinion. The beauty of this place is that you get 50 opinions for free...

Edited March 9, 2019 by Shadrach

[gsxrpilot]

9 minutes ago, Shadrach said:

 

The beauty of this place is you can get 50 opinions for free...

Hahahah true that :-)

 

[RLCarter]

1 hour ago, Shadrach said:

And of course, always bringing breakfast tacos if I'm going to stop by the shop in the morning

thats like walking in with a bag of gold...

[David_H]

Breakfast Tacos.

That may be where things went wrong.

In all honesty though... I agree that good will goes much further than dollars do. Breakfast Tacos sounds funny, but everyone wants to be thought of at the start of the day.

[RLCarter]

23 minutes ago, David_H said:

Breakfast Tacos sounds funny

Down where I live there isn't a convenience store that doesn't sell breakfast tacos, my fav is bacon & egg in a flour tortilla. Average price is around  1.50 and generally 1 taco is plenty 

[Yetti]

I view things differently.  The agreed upon conclusion is that the airplane is only airworthy till it crosses the grumpy IAs hanger door line.  Always do a RTS flight staying above the airport.   This was demonstrated to me on the RTS flight after the annual.  Took it out and took it up to 7000 feet saw a burble on the fuel pressure gauge out of the corner of my eye.   Landed, did the fuel pressure leak down test on the ground.  The mech fuel pump was going bad.   Does this mean the IA did a bad job or I did a bad job of the inspection?   Nope.

There are probably some pop quiz questions to find out how through an annual inspection is:

1.  Was the fuel servo finger screen inspected
2. Look for new grease on the landing gear joints
3. See if the belly pans are clean
4. Check for rags and tools in the engine compartment
5. Condition of screw heads.   All chewed up or still good.
6. Exhaust slip joints lubed
7. Spend time tracing each wire and hose with your eyes,  put a hand on each hose fitting that was removed and make sure it is tight.