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It's Back, Buyer Beware !!!!!!

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PTK Grand Master

PTK

Posted
Posted

Quote: Parker_Woodruff

ummm...I'm pretty sure you used to not find fault with his actions.

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PTK Grand Master

PTK

Posted
Posted

Quote: N6719N

Several years ago, I was looking at another make/model aircraft to purchase.  I went through the logs thoroughly... complete and clean back to day one.  I decided not to buy the airplane for other reasons.  Shortly after I passed on the deal, someone from that aircraft association called me and said "Psssst... you do know that the aircraft you were looking at was the one that was landed on water and sank to the bottom of....".  It was only luck that I didn't get that airplane.

A few years later, I was looking at another aircraft, clean logs, just like before, but some things didn't look right in the prepurchase inspection.  The metal looked funny in places, like nothing I had ever seen before.  I started calling previous owners, and one of them said "You know that aircraft was in a hangar fire and it got so hot some of it melted, don't you?"

Even with due diligence, and a thorough review of the logs, it is possible to miss big problems in the purchase process.  If I were selling this airplane, a full disclosure would be on every ad and posting.  Then buyers could decide if they wanted a bargain, but they would know what there were getting.  It might not get sold as quickly, and the disclosure might run off several buyers, but when it did sell, I would still sleep fine.  But then again, this gets to the core of the issue... I would care and it would matter to me if a buyer got duped.  Some people just don't care.  Shameful IMHO.

N9937c Community Regular

N9937c

Posted
Posted

There are a LOT of pilots and owners that take aircraft logs as gospel. After being around aircraft and aircraft mechanics for almost 40 years I could write a pretty good book.


If in my search for an aircraft there was a statement in the logs from a FAA CERTIFIED REPAIR STATION a cold chill would run down my back.




I do it everyday and I don't have an IA.
A Repair Station works under different rules.
Did you know that a Repair Station can do a major repair and never file a Form 337?
FAR 43 Appendix B.
A statement as follows can be placed in the logbook to record the work...

The aircraft, airframe, aircraft engine, propeller, or appliance identified above was repaired and inspected in accordance with current Regulations of the Federal Aviation Agency and is approved for return to service.

Pertinent details of the repair are on file at this repair station under Order No. ___,

Date____________________
Signed____________________
For signature of authorized representative)

Repair station name) (Certificate No.)

____________.”

(Address)

This was taken from a aircraft mechnics site not too hard to find. THIS SHOULD GIVE ALL OF US SOMETHING TO THINK ABOUT! The repair station only has to retain the work order for 2 years so makes it tough to find what was done!

Read FAR 43 app B for yourself!

LARRY
Shadrach Grand Master

Shadrach

Posted
Posted

Wow... Jerry has caused quite an up-roar here!  I've never met the man in person, but I have purchased parts from him over the phone. He was pretty easy to work with.  The truth is folks, is that Jerry most likely believes this baby is the cream puff that he's making it out to be.  Jerry has flown operated a number of salvaged and or rebuilt aircraft.  This bird may or may not be a great machine...just like any other AC on eBay... The notion that this is a fraudulent ad is a bit over the top as the N# has been photographed for all to see and research. What eBay aircraft buyer would not at least google the N#????  I would venture a guess that there are folks posting here that have sold cars without disclosing accidents and fendor-benders in the classified ad... So next time you list an old used car, be sure and list all previous damage in the ad... I however, will never count on it.  As someone once said..."Trust, but verify"...

Shadrach Grand Master

Shadrach

Posted
Posted

Quote: N9154V

In 1980, I know of a 310 that was submerged due to flooding. The plane was completely reworked, new/overhauled instruments, vacuum lines, engines inspected, props every thing.   This plane ate several owners to the poor house.

I beleive that it is on market now. It is very low time plane for the age.   

After watching this one go to the detail that it went through, and then all of the headaches, I would not touch any plane that went swimming.

This is just my humble opinion. Buyers beware.

Ron

DaV8or Grand Master

DaV8or

Posted
Posted

Quote: Shadrach

The notion that this is a fraudulent ad is a bit over the top as the N# has been photographed for all to see and research. What eBay aircraft buyer would not at least google the N#????

triple8s Mentor

triple8s

Posted
Posted

Anybody that buys a used vehicle and doesnt kick the tires......well? Would I buy that plane? Maybe but I would take a week off from work and get a motel near 1A6 and go over the logs take off the interior panels to SEE the tubes. There are bolts that access the tubing and I would want to run a mag/wire in to see what comes out. Just because an airplane has been apart or rebuilt doesnt mean it isnt a good airplane, if that were the case there would be no airworthy P51's or the like. Is this a good A/C? I dont know but I wouldnt buy it or any other vehicle without doing the homework first. Our only alternative is to buy new. Who likes that? 1965 Mooney M20 NDH?  50 years and NDH? Anyone who believes that doesnt have the brains to fly.

jetdriven Grand Master

jetdriven

Posted
Posted

Here is the deal.  Is this damage history? Or damage that is there and never will go away? An aircraft is considered airworthy when it conforms to the type certifcate.  Do you think Mooney engineering is going to quantify the damage to the aircraft and declare it airworthy?  NO way!  It has been completely submerged in water.  The fuselage structure is 4130 Chromoly steel tubing which has a propensity to rust.  Can you inspect the inside of all the tubes? Can you ultrasonic check the wall diameter of every tube and say it has not corroded more than 10%? (The general AC43-13 limit for tubing corrosion) It has a laminated aluminum spar. And fully enclosed control surfaces which cannot be inspected inside.  OK not today but what about in 5 years from now? Airworthiness is based on known processes, events, and industry practices.  You cannot quantify a flood. Or severe heat damage.  Or overload.  I saw a really nice 231 as a salvage that was involved in a mountain wave accident that was +/- 10 Gs and the aircraft fuselage and wing were permanently bent.  Mooney engineering said the entire aircraft exceeded the ultimate load limit and was then and forever condemned.  Does that mean someone has the right to straighten the wings and sell it to someone else? Lie about it?  Or just not tell the whole truth?  Buyer beware?  We are not talking about a half ton chevy pickup here this is an aircraft.


What about the avionics? The Aspen? SL30? Is the Aspen airworthy?  Does Peter warrant them to be waterrpoof now? It is certified as a primary IFR instrument. Someone can takeoff IFR at night, and go with this 12,000$ unit installed.  How long will it last?  The correct answer is "it depends" but do you think it will meet its 12,000 MTBF after being sank in water?  Is making an "honest buck" worth killing someone over?

If you want to see integrity, stop by a certain Mooney dealer in San Antonio.   While you are at it, ask him about this plane.


 


if you want to know what he is forthcoming about, check the following email exchange between him and I.  decide yourself.  


 


Dear aap3670,


http://consumerist.com/2007/11/devoted-customer-upset-jimmy-dean-downsized-sausage-16oz-to-12oz-but-charges-same-price.html is this the same plane? your ad doesnt mention floods.


-----------


Dear cessna421c,
dont get the connection with jimmys sausage. if u were buying u would be told all. there r few planes that are damage history free. i checked a dozen listed and 70% had history. none disclosed. was cleaned up right and documented if it is no good for u then keep shopping
jerry
---------


Dear aap3670,
sorry, wrong link. is this the same plane? http://www.avclaims.com/N9218M%20Photos.htm
--------------


Dear cessna421c,
ha ha no problem. looked bad then didnt it? took months to go thru it even to extent of treating the Inside of the tubing structure. didnt hurt the avionics as they all light up and work great. new technology is great eh? jerry
- aap3670


 


 


(separate email exchange, directly emailed instead of through eBay)


-----Original Message-----
From: BDR7
To: pressleyjerry
Sent: Tue, Jun 7, 2011 11:48 am
Subject: n9218M

Jerry:
How long have you owned this plane?  Why so many upgrades? Any damage history?
Warranty?  Anything else to say about the plane?
thanks
bdr7


-------------


From:     pressleyjerry@aol.com
    Subject:     Re: n9218M
    Date:     June 7, 2011 1:20:44 PM CDT
    To:


former owner did upgrades,,,prop strike but new engine since then.   elevator changed for????
where r u located?  u need to look at it. is a great plane.


 


 

sleepingsquirrel Mentor

sleepingsquirrel

Posted
Posted

What we have here is a good case for the "Scarlet Letter"! The Airplane in question should have to wear a Scarlet S on its tail for all to see! Maybe a good case for "Dave's Neckliss" and a snorkel will be hung around the neck of JP unitl............

PTK Grand Master

PTK

Posted
Posted

What we have here is a missing link(s) n the regs in the rtecorded history and an unscrupulous seller who is seemingly wiggling around abd through the process taking full advantage of the missing links.  Was the aircraft involved in an accident or an incident when it went for a swim?  We don't know if it was an incident or an accident. We further don't know if it was a hull loss accident.  There are missing links as to where these things must be recorded and  how long are they required to be saved. They must recorded somewhere!  It would be criminal to deliberatly lie and conceal records!  So far though I don't see how this guy has committed any crime. He posts pics with the reg number! Anyone with half a brain contemplating the purchase of an aircraft would look this up!  A title search should uncover something!


This is worth following up with if it is going to save a life or at least lots of headaches to somebody.  

1964-M20E Grand Master

1964-M20E

Posted
Posted

If a plane, car, boat house has been flooded it should be disclosed by the seller when selling the item.  Some things can be more easily found out than others then it is up to the purchaser to decide if the items have been properly restored for the price he is paying for it.


 


I had a brand new boat and motor go under in salt water. We retrieved the boat and motor drained the oil, blew out the cylinders dried off some items and fired it off.  We have only had minor problems since then and nothing that shut the motor down once the water was removed from the fuel tank.  Granted not an airplane but going under is not a death sentence for most items.


 


I think the bottom line is honesty and disclosure.  Then the buyer can make up his own mind.

N601RX Grand Master

N601RX

Posted
Posted

Quote: allsmiles

What we have here is a missing link(s) n the regs in the rtecorded history and an unscrupulous seller who is seemingly wiggling around abd through the process taking full advantage of the missing links.  Was the aircraft involved in an accident or an incident when it went for a swim?  We don't know if it was an incident or an accident. We further don't know if it was a hull loss accident.  There are missing links as to where these things must be recorded and  how long are they required to be saved. They must recorded somewhere!  It would be criminal to deliberatly lie and conceal records!  So far though I don't see how this guy has committed any crime. He posts pics with the reg number! Anyone with half a brain contemplating the purchase of an aircraft would look this up!  A title search should uncover something!

This is worth following up with if it is going to save a life or at least lots of headaches to somebody.  

DaV8or Grand Master

DaV8or

Posted
Posted

Quote: allsmiles

So far though I don't see how this guy has committed any crime. He posts pics with the reg number! Anyone with half a brain contemplating the purchase of an aircraft would look this up!  A title search should uncover something!

DaV8or Grand Master

DaV8or

Posted
Posted

Quote: N601RX

A complete teardown, inspection and cleaning of all parts.  This includes engine, prop, engine accessories, avionics ect.  This has not been done.  

N601RX Grand Master

N601RX

Posted
Posted

                  " A title search would turn up the name of the salvage company, but you would have to know enough to      actually do a title search."


It would probably not even turn up that.  Most salvage companies usually don't even bother to register the plane in their name.  The title or registration usually just goes from the previous owner to the new owner with no mention of the insurance or salvage company briefly owning it since neither one of them actually registered the plane.

N601RX Grand Master

N601RX

Posted
Posted

Quote: DaV8or

In all fairness, we don't know that this has not been done. It may have been. It does seem unlikely that it was done thouroughly though, considering the seller is trying to make a profit and has chosen to sell it low ball on eBay.

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