What is your icing strategy?

[Hank]

My icing strategy is simple:  when there's icing out (air or ground), I stay inside. This is easier and much less frequent now that I've moved back South.

When there's icing inside, I keep it in my drink . . .

[Scott Dennstaedt, PhD]

5 hours ago, Hank said:

My icing strategy is simple:  when there's icing out (air or ground), I stay inside. 

Hank,

So what is it that tells you there’s icing out there?  In other words what weather tools do you use and what tells you there’s a threat of ice?

[Hank]

56 minutes ago, scottd said:

Hank,

So what is it that tells you there’s icing out there?  In other words what weather tools do you use and what tells you there’s a threat of ice?

Freezing levels vs. clouds, frontal passage, Low pressure circulation and the occasional PIREP. I drove 10 hours south from WV one time because an ice storm was moving across my route, and pellets began bouncing off my windshield while driving home from work to get my wife.

Flying in WV, yes I have carefully penetrated clouds in winter, with a close eye on forecasts and actual weather for a couple of days beforehand and a sharp eye outside and on the OAT. Snow is alright, if it's not heavy wet snow. But all of that is behind me now, and I'm happy with that. We had a freak 3" snowfall in Jan, our plant closed for 2-1/2 days.  

Gotta have an out, and know where it is--ice kills. Save it for your favorite drinks!

[Scott Dennstaedt, PhD]

1 hour ago, Hank said:

Freezing levels vs. clouds, frontal passage, Low pressure circulation and the occasional PIREP.

Done a lot of flying in WVa...was based in Baltimore and found myself flying many times throughout the state.  But curious, what's deal with a frontal passage?  What are you specifically looking at to know about icing?  Just because it's a front?  Or something else?  Inquiring minds want to know!

[Hank]

43 minutes ago, scottd said:

Done a lot of flying in WVa...was based in Baltimore and found myself flying many times throughout the state.  But curious, what's deal with a frontal passage?  What are you specifically looking at to know about icing?  Just because it's a front?  Or something else?  Inquiring minds want to know!

Scott--youre the Weather Guy, looking for where the ice is. I'm a simple pilot looking for where the ice is not. Our goals are different, requiring different methods, data and analysis. I can't give what you want, it's not my thing.

Ice is to be avoided, not only where it is but where it may be. It's a loss of utility that I am happy to accept. Because the consequences of mistakes are quite severe, and my need is so infrequent, that I can't dedicate the time to it that you do.

[Scott Dennstaedt, PhD]

2 minutes ago, Hank said:

Scott--you're the Weather Guy, looking for where the ice is. I'm a simple pilot looking for where the ice is not. Our goals are different, requiring different methods, data and analysis. I can't give what you want, it's not my thing.

Ice is to be avoided, not only where it is but where it may be. It's a loss of utility that I am happy to accept. Because the consequences of mistakes are quite severe, and my need is so infrequent, that I can't dedicate the time to it that you do.

Interesting response Hank...wasn't expecting that.  Just a correction tho...I'm a pilot like you also looking for where ice is not.  So our goals are quite the same. As a CFI, I train pilots all of the time to do exactly what you are doing.  You mentioned fronts, so I was just asking - what about fronts gets your attention from an icing perspective?  When I'm planning a flight, fronts get my attention too and I certainly know what *I* look for.  Was just trying to see if you had some other words of wisdom and carry on the conversation.   

[1964-M20E]

Resurrecting an old thread but I had my first icing encounter Saturday flying to KLHW.  I was at 110 clear sky from KMSY to about 150nm from LHW OAT was 26F.  I saw the clouds coming and knew at 090 and below it was  clear.   Continued on and saw a small amount of ice begin building on the leading edge.   I asked ATC for 070 and as I passed 085 ice began to melt off.  It was good experience knowing I had a good out.

[moosebreath]

I can not help but respond to this thread.

If there is any chance of icing just do not go.  Yes, this means you can not fly many times during the winter.  Yes this means your plane is not a reliable source of scheduled transportation.  And yes, lots of people fly in possible icing conditions for years and have no problems.

I am not proud of the experience but I am an icing survivor.  Real icing.  The engine only works sporadically, you can not hold altitude, over the mountains, clouds to the ground, no nav radios, below the highest terrain, position unknown kind of icing.

It is one thing to discuss skew-t interpretation, freezing level forecasts, climb rates, and pilot report evaluation.  It is quite another to watch the ice build and listen to the engine sputter while helplessly descending in IMC knowing you and your passengers are almost certainly going to die.

Tom Turner the Director of the American Bonanza Society Air Safety Foundation has a gazillion hours in planes with performance quite similar to our Mooneys.  I do not know his personal experience with icing but he recently wrote an article in the Society magazine that said the same thing.  Any chance of ice, don’t go.

For me, it is just that simple.

[carusoam]

Great experiences shared, gents!

Thanks for taking the time to fill in all of the details...

Including the Plan B and its execution...

Watching ice build can be pretty scary... as it can happen very quickly...

Best regards,

-a-

[toto]

1 hour ago, moosebreath said:

recently wrote an article in the Society magazine

Is this available online somewhere?  I have no Bonanza connections, but sounds interesting.

[jlunseth]

It's very situational. I have a 231, which is capable of flying into icing conditions any time of the year, meaning I can fly into freezing temperatures, but the aircraft is not FIKI certified. My main strategy is not to get into it. My secondary strategy, where I am in the air and icing conditions are developing, is to never allow myself to get into a "box" where there is no safe exit. I always want an exit strategy, should icing develop, that gets me out of the icing conditions. That may be lower, higher, or a hard right or left turn with a landing at an unplanned destination.

I primarily use the icing graphics in Foreflight and on the aviationweather.gov site, but unforeseen conditions can develop in the air as well. Icing is where it is, not necessarily where it is not forecast, or where it is forecast.

I can think of a few instances where I got into it. One, I was flying over some cloud cover on a night flight in WI at 10,000, and the cloud tops kept getting higher. I was reluctant to go up further because of adverse winds aloft, but the cloud tops formed long waves and I occasionally went through a top, which is the wettest part and the worst for ice. So after a couple of dips and picking up a little light rime, I simply got a new altitude assignment and went higher into clear air. I have good weather on the panel and knew that closer to my destination the clouds would abate, and I also had a secondary out by descending to warm temps. On another occasion, I was flying over some cloud cover at 21,000 in the middle of the summer and the clouds as I progressed along the route of flight kept getting higher and wider. I went to 23k, but then dipped into a cloud top and got slammed briefly. I was on the back side of a front. I was going south to north and the front was moving west to east, with better weather to the west. I could see that if I progressed further along the route it was possible that the cloud tops would equal or exceed my service ceiling (24,000) and the aircraft's climb rate up there is fairly poor anyway, so rather than risk it I requested a 120 degree left turn, diverted, and landed at I think it was Des Moines. Refueled and found a low altitude way of flying home, no ice. On another occasion I got very light icing while flying in the clear because cloud cover well above was dropping some precipitation. I was on the edge of the cloud cover, so I just requested a deviation left of course and got away from that edge. The one time I was in it for awhile, it was mid-summer and the ground temps and temps up to about 10k were nice and warm. I was at, I think 21,000, so I planned my descent to be rapid and to get through the wet mess and down to nonicing temps as quickly as possible.

There are times when there is forecast icing and the conditions are there, cloud cover and freezing temps, but the density of the cloud cover is too low and icing just does not happen. There are times in the winter when we have a thin stratus layer that starts at nonicing temps and climbs into what could be icing temps if one applies the 4.5 degrees per thousand formula, but very often the temp in that cloud layer may remain stable all the way to the cloud tops and then it is clear. Skew T sometimes helps with that.

So the strategy is: (1) stay home if conditions look bad for icing, (2) always have an exit, (3) never, ever let yourself get into a box because you have soldiered on because you are a better than average pilot, when you should have done something different.

[1964-M20E]

I will add that a week or so earlier I had the same trip and I drove instead of flying because of the possibility of ice.  I didn't like driving but that was the best option since it was low OVC the whole route and temperatures were cold at ground level.  I didn't even look to see where the ice was I figured it would probably be present  anywhere above a couple thousand feet.

[Tim Jodice]

20 hours ago, moosebreath said:

I can not help but respond to this thread.

If there is any chance of icing just do not go.  Yes, this means you can not fly many times during the winter.  Yes this means your plane is not a reliable source of scheduled transportation.  And yes, lots of people fly in possible icing conditions for years and have no problems.

I am not proud of the experience but I am an icing survivor.  Real icing.  The engine only works sporadically, you can not hold altitude, over the mountains, clouds to the ground, no nav radios, below the highest terrain, position unknown kind of icing.

It is one thing to discuss skew-t interpretation, freezing level forecasts, climb rates, and pilot report evaluation.  It is quite another to watch the ice build and listen to the engine sputter while helplessly descending in IMC knowing you and your passengers are almost certainly going to die.

Tom Turner the Director of the American Bonanza Society Air Safety Foundation has a gazillion hours in planes with performance quite similar to our Mooneys.  I do not know his personal experience with icing but he recently wrote an article in the Society magazine that said the same thing.  Any chance of ice, don’t go.

For me, it is just that simple.

Some people didn't buy their airplane as a toy they bought it as a tool. Can you make every flight? Of course not, but to not go when there is a chance of ice in New England is a bit much for me.

My experience in the past 2 years has been there is far less ice than forecasted. It makes sense for the weather people to be conservative. 

That said if you fly 30-40 hours a year then yes probably not I good idea to be near ice or fly IFR.

The few time I do.. well all I can say is TKS is an amazing system. 

[moosebreath]

20 hours ago, toto said:

Is this available online somewhere?  I have no Bonanza connections, but sounds interesting.

ABS (American Bonanza Society) material is on their members only website.  They have simply superb articles in their magazine on all phases of flight technique and decision making.  In addition they have webinars every month that are excellent.  It is the best $85 per year that I spend on aviation.  They are friendly to Mooney folks and many of their articles apply to our flying.

Sadly there is nothing remotely like it in the Mooney community.

I can’t post his article but you could certainly email him and ask.  Tom Turner asf@bonanza.org  I am guessing you will get a friendly answer and a membership application...

[kortopates]

45 minutes ago, moosebreath said:

ABS (American Bonanza Society) material is on their members only website.  They have simply superb articles in their magazine on all phases of flight technique and decision making.  In addition they have webinars every month that are excellent.  It is the best $85 per year that I spend on aviation.  They are friendly to Mooney folks and many of their articles apply to our flying.

Sadly there is nothing remotely like it in the Mooney community.

I can’t post his article but you could certainly email him and ask.  Tom Turner asf@bonanza.org  I am guessing you will get a friendly answer and a membership application...

I agree and am also a ABS member as well as a Bonanza instructor and have done a lot with Tom. I will say though that the Mooney PPP are exactly tailored after the ABS PPP's and even one of our PPP instructor has gone over to the Bonanza side trading his Mooney for an A36 - he outgrew his Mooney. Ditto for Mooney Caravan formation training stemming from the Boanaza progarm. I know we have a lot of other Bonanza pilots here as well and lots of Mooneyspacers that frequent the Beechtalk too. We have a lot in common.

[Ibra]

For en-route “the icing height band” is usually 6kft-9kft wide, I don’t think may SELs have the luxury to stay inside icing for cruise even with FIKI wings, it’s just temporary patch? one either climb before hitting that icing band or descend bellow it with considerations to MEA/MSA/VMC

If one has a fat 310hp turbo+oxygen+hotprop (or better 700hp turbine) in front that give +1500fpm then it’s a 5min business, even have the luxury to outclimb while being inside if doing +220TAS before pulling up to Vy, for someone with less climb power: turn back where they come from or go 90deg left/right if it’s localised, if they can climb 8000ft in IMC/VMC out of ice they can try punching through again, if they can’t make the climb with no ice back where they came from how they are supposed to make that while collecting ice toward the destination?

Mooneys have advantage of going fast, that may helps when converting speed into height if one is already high near the top of the band to boost his rate of climb or maybe very fast to melt ice when low at -2C OAT but Mooney wings are really clean and they suffer from the dirt, it does not take a lot before losing rate of climb with the slightest depot of ice unlike draggy wings (e.g. C182, C210) 

On approach, it’s easy to be on ground in 10min if you are pushy, just be honest upfront  on departure, if it’s icing on the ground then you know you may have 8000ft to go, if ATC says 3000ft initially, then you have your answer: turn back and shutdown the engine 

It takes 16min/8min to go higher/lower than the “icing height band” when you touch it under any IFR capable aircraft (min +500fpm and max -1000fpm), to stay inside you need a FIKI, however, ATC/PIC will spend way more time thinking before making that decision, so the limits are not purely aircraft performance, there are aircrafts with 300kts & +3000fpm fully FIKI that went down in icing as PIC/ATC accepted to stay right inside for 1h not doing anything about it...

PS: the concept of “8kft icing height band” require horizontal OAT profile, that’s not always the case when crossing fronts bellow freezing levels: in cold front convective cells the limits for supercooled droplets could go as low as the ground and as heigh as the traupaupose, in warm front freezing rain the wet 0C isotherm is vertical with steep slope and wide area, when it looks like crossing fronts in winter I look for diverting airports & possiblity of low VMC without getting wet, but sometimes I had to wait one day or 2days and watch things on the ground...

Edited March 10, 2021 by Ibra