Legal question - Runway usage - non-towered airport

[Seth]

In a separate topic there is discussion over line up and wait.  The purpose of this thread is to review two scenarios and ask what is legal, and then what is reasonable.

I have found that busy non-towered airports where everyone is working together can sometimes be more efficient than a towered field where certain safety rules are applied, however from an efficineny standpoint, less traffic is able to use the runway at once.  I have also been at a non-towered field where even if one pilot does not "work with" or have consideration for the others in the pattern, it would be much safer with a tower at the field.  Case in point, I was at a Class D airport about two weeks ago #1 for departure and waited for three landing aircraft.  It added maybe 6-8 minutes to my trip - not really a big deal, but I did have passengers with a time constraint.   I easily could have departed between two of them, but also understood the tower did feel comfortable with a "line up and wait" and then depart no delay.  Earlier in the day, I departed between landing traffic at a class B airport with similar gaps in landing traffic.

At non-towered airports, I think that "line up and wait" which used to be "position and hold" is not a standard phrase.  That's something a control tower can state, but at a non-towered field, it's not something standard to self announce.

Rule:  Only once aircraft can make use of the runway (wheels on pavement) at any given period of time (except formation take off/landings - still one "flight.").

Scenario 1:  There are many planes in the pattern, someone on downwind, someone just turned downwind to base, and five aircraft are lined up for takeoff.  No one is really extending downwind for spacing to allow for takeoff (but also no one has requested the pattern traffic to do so).  The aircraft on final has just passed the threshold and is in the flare or has already touched down and is wheels down on the runway.  I have seen people announce their own "line up and wait" type announcement, get in position, and add power as soon as the landing aircraft is clear of the runway, thus having launched prior to the base aircraft reaching final or short final.  This would have not been possible without lining up for takeoff with the runway occupied with the the landing aircraft on rollout.  Technically though the runway now has two separate aircraft not on the same "flight" with wheels on pavement and no control tower ensuring separation.  Dangerous as an engine out could cause the aircraft on base or downwind to turn immediately for the pavement, if waiting too long, you no longer have eyes on the base traffic, etc . . . but perfectly reasonable in order to make use of the gap between landing and arriving traffic to get an aircraft out in a busy atmosphere.

Thoughts?  Is this legal?  Is it reasonable?  Thanks!

 

Scenario 2:  When flying into a local airport that had some taxiway work (or airports that have partial taxiways) backtaxing down runways are sometimes needed.  During busy times, I have witnessed the following:  When an aircraft is in flare or ground roll after landing, traffic waiting at a midfield taxiway will taxi out immediately on to the runway behind the moving aircraft travelling in the opposite direction to the main ramp - they'll announce they are back taxing to the ramp, but again, technically you have two aircraft not in the same flight now taxing opposite directions down the same runway.  If seen the same scenario with a train of three aircraft backtaxing together down the runway from the midfield taxi way turn off to the main ramp.  If each aircraft had waited until the landing aircraft was clear of the runway, it may have been another 15-20 seconds, and the difference between an aircraft in the pattern turning base vs turning final.  Or, if each of the three backtaxi aircraft waited for a one at a time taxi back, it would have taken 3 more laps in the pattern for each airplane to get to the main ramp.  I do not feel any of these are unsafe, but is it legal?  

Thanks for your feedback!

 

-Seth

Edited October 15, 2018 by Seth

[KLRDMD]

15 minutes ago, Seth said:

Rule:  Only once aircraft can make use of the runway (wheels on pavement) at any given period of time (except formation take off/landings - still one "flight.").

Scenario 1:  There are many planes in the pattern, someone on downwind, someone just turned downwind to base, and five aircraft are lined up for takeoff.  No one is really extending downwind for spacing to allow for takeoff (but also no one has requested the pattern traffic to do so).  The aircraft on final has just passed the threshold and is in the flare or has already touched down and is wheels down on the runway.  I have seen people announce their own "line up and wait" type announcement, get in position, and add power as soon as the landing aircraft is clear of the runway, thus having launched prior to the base aircraft reaching final or short final.  This would have not been possible without lining up for takeoff with the runway occupied with the the landing aircraft on rollout.  Technically though the runway now has two separate aircraft not on the same "flight" with wheels on pavement and no control tower ensuring separation.  Dangerous as an engine out could cause the aircraft on base or downwind to turn immediately for the pavement, if waiting too long, you no longer have eyes on the base traffic, etc . . . but perfectly reasonable in order to make use of the gap between landing and arriving traffic to get an aircraft out in a busy atmosphere.

Thoughts?  Is this legal?  Is it reasonable?  Thanks!

https://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Order/ATC.pdf

3-10-3:

When a Category I aircraft is landing behind a Category I or II− 3,000 feet.

4,500 Feet of Separation: When a Category II aircraft is landing behind a Category I or II.

Category I: Small single engine propeller driven aircraft weighing 12,500 lbs. or less, and all helicopters.

Category II: Small twin engine propeller driven aircraft weighing 12,500 lbs. or less.

Category III: All other aircraft.

[jaylw314]

3 hours ago, Seth said:

Rule:  Only once aircraft can make use of the runway (wheels on pavement) at any given period of time (except formation take off/landings - still one "flight.").

I'm not aware of any such rule at non-towered airports?

For #1, there's nothing to prohibit an aircraft could not taxi onto the runway and wait for the previous aircraft to clear, even if there is landing traffic.  I'm not saying it's smart or polite, just no rule against doing so.  Without a rear-facing window, I'd generally line up at a slight angle so I could see back along the runway heading (I do this when stopped on taxiways, too)

[Hank]

6 hours ago, KLRDMD said:

https://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Order/ATC.pdf

3-10-3:

When a Category I aircraft is landing behind a Category I or II− 3,000 feet.

4,500 Feet of Separation: When a Category II aircraft is landing behind a Category I or II.

Category I: Small single engine propeller driven aircraft weighing 12,500 lbs. or less, and all helicopters.

Category II: Small twin engine propeller driven aircraft weighing 12,500 lbs. or less.

Category III: All other aircraft.

Yes, that's the rule followed by the nice folks in the tower. At non-towered fields, it doesn't apply . . . . Nor do many other Tower rules.

I was based at a 3000' non-towered field for seven years; there was no taxiway, and only a single paved entry to the runway 1000' from the preferred end. It was commin for two planes to back taxi for departure together, especially when using the far end. Returning from lunch runs, it was also not uncommon for one plane to land and roll to the end while a second landed behind, then both taxi back in. We just coordinated on the radio, no big deal. If the third plane was too close, we would pull into the grass while taxiing in for it to land.

We did give way to the skydivers--I would either orbit nearby or shoot a touch and go at the nearby D while waiting for them to reach the ground. Ditto for the powered parachute, although it was fun to watch his takeoffs.

[1964-M20E]

It's called communication and being polite works real well.  If someone is waiting to take off extend your down wind and tell them you are extending.   They may not yet be ready and tell you to land in front of them.

There are rules for landing, taking off, lower slower aircraft etc.  However, if you are talking to each other just work it out.  It's the ones who are not talking that muck up the works.

Yesterday leaving Indy (KEYE) I had my clearance all I needed was to let CLC DEL know I was #1 for the runway.  There was a citation right behind me I asked if he was ready to go.  He was still waiting for his clearance and told me to go #1.  Then both of us had to wait a few minutes for VP Mike Pence to exit the airspace.

 

 

[Marauder]

Seth -- see I used "Line up and wait" -- 7:25 minutes  N57-Oct-14-2018-1500Z.mp3 The sequence went from my line up and wait call to the tow plane & glider transmitting clear of the runway and base simultaneously at 7:51. I heard the tow plane's "clear of runway" and called departing at 8:03. The glider called base again at 8:31, the golf cart for the glider club calling crossing the runway at 8:35, followed by the glider calling final at 8:48. If I had waited until 7:51 and it took me 30 seconds to line up and begin departing, I would have been on the runway at roughly 8:21 minutes with the glider making his "on final" call at 8:31. 

Why do we do this? Simple, pretty active airport and you don't have the time to spend 30 seconds to move from the hold line to enter the runway and depart because someone is always on one of the legs to the airport. In this case, the tow plane had just landed and one of the gliders was entering the base leg to the grass recovery strip. The approach end of my airport's runway 24 is slightly downhill and when you are sitting on the runway you can't see if a plane has exited the runway on the other end. So it is pretty common for a number of us to line up and wait until we hear the plane that landed has cleared. There is a chance that you could abort and forced a power plane to go around, but that is why we have radios.

[Bob - S50]

Others have covered the legality.

In my opinion, I do not like line up and wait at either a towered or non-towered airport.

Witness the accident at LAX when a plane was put into position and forgotten at night and another aircraft landed on top of him.  I like being able to see traffic on final and I can't do that if I'm on the runway and pointed at the departure end.

At non-towered airport I don't see the usefulness of line up and wait.  If you plan to do that and release brakes when the landing aircraft has cleared the runway, you probably have enough judgement to sit short of the runway and start rolling onto the runway as the landing aircraft begins their turn off the runway.  In the line up and wait case you can no longer see the position of the plane on base, you don't know if he was paying attention to your call, you hope he notices a plane on the runway, and you hope the landing aircraft doesn't roll longer than anticipated.  By holding short you can monitor both aircraft.  When the landing aircraft begins to turn off, you can check the position and speed of the plane that was on base and decide if you can get airborne in time or not.

Plus, if I'm not mistaken, even ATC uses "anticipated clearance".  That is, they don't necessarily have to wait until one aircraft has cleared the runway before they clear another for takeoff.  They just have to anticipate that it will be clear in time.

[Ron McBride]

Many years ago, I was told to "taxi into position and hold", full length, there was a Cherokee holding in position mid field.  I was cleared for takeoff with the Cherokee holding.  I declined the takeoff, and the tower about dirtied his pants when he realized what was happening.   This was Chino Ca, runway 21 before the parallel runway 26 was built.

I listen to all tower and pilots communications, you can learn a lot from them.  The Cherokee never moved or said a word???

Line up and wait, can help, but can get you hurt.   Be safe.  

[midlifeflyer]

"I'm lining up and waiting" has no place at a nontowered airport. Trying to get an extra 10 seconds is not worth the risk.

[mooneyflyer]

Ditto to MidLifeFlyer.... you should not taxi onto runway at uncontrolled field until you can depart immediately.

[Vance Harral]

6 hours ago, Marauder said:

Why do we do this? Simple, pretty active airport and you don't have the time to spend 30 seconds to move from the hold line to enter the runway.

This seems to be the crux of the debate.

At my uncontrolled home drome, it's approximately 150 feet from the hold short line to the center of the runway.  Taxiing from the hold short line to a full-stop, aligned-with-the-runway position (e.g. for a classic short field takeoff technique) takes about 10 seconds, same as midlifeflyer says.  This means I can "buy" 10 seconds of gap time by performing a home-grown-line-up-and-wait (HGLUAW) maneuver while another aircraft is still on the runway, vs. waiting until they exit.  But if I plan to smoothly accelerate from the hold short line into a takeoff roll - which is not only my common practice but actually results in a slightly shorter takeoff point - the gap time I can "buy" with HGLUAW is even less than 10 seconds.  In that environment - i.e. at my home drome, with me, in my airplane - HGLUAW is silly.  The risk of doing so is arguably small, but the benefit is nil.  Because when you're talking about literally a single-digit-number of seconds, no reasonable person can claim there is only room to safely squeeze between landing airplanes using HGLUAW.

Marauder says in his case the delta is 30 seconds, and I have no reason to doubt him.  Maybe a bigger airport with bigger runways, more distance from hold short line.  Other folks may not be comfortable with the rolling start technique, etc.  I just know that I've never personally been at an uncontrolled field where I felt like HGLUAW was the difference between a polite reasonable departure, vs. bullying into line ahead of landing aircraft.  Put another way, if I think there's room for me to get out between two landing aircraft, it makes no difference whether I start from on the runway or from the hold short line, so why not take the latter option?

On a related note, I picked up a trick from an old CFI a while back that I like.  When using LUAW anywhere - towered or not - consider "lining up" not aligned with the runway center line, but rather cocked 30 degrees or so to the left.  This lets you look back and check for traffic landing on top of you, and in most cases gives you an "out" to quickly taxi clear of the runway in an emergency (perhaps into the grass).  When cleared for takeoff, just finish aligning the airplane with the centerline as part of the takeoff roll.

[EricJ]

6 hours ago, N803RM said:

Many years ago, I was told to "taxi into position and hold", full length, there was a Cherokee holding in position mid field.  I was cleared for takeoff with the Cherokee holding.  I declined the takeoff, and the tower about dirtied his pants when he realized what was happening.   This was Chino Ca, runway 21 before the parallel runway 26 was built.

I listen to all tower and pilots communications, you can learn a lot from them.  The Cherokee never moved or said a word???

Line up and wait, can help, but can get you hurt.   Be safe.  

There's been a few instances where I just skipped compliance with instructions from a tower because they were clearly in error.   e.g., I was cleared onto the runway for takeoff when there was a Cessna on short final, that I was looking right at.   I just held my position.   They did rescind that clearance a little bit later.

[jaylw314]

17 minutes ago, EricJ said:

There's been a few instances where I just skipped compliance with instructions from a tower because they were clearly in error.   e.g., I was cleared onto the runway for takeoff when there was a Cessna on short final, that I was looking right at.   I just held my position.   They did rescind that clearance a little bit later.

There've been more than one instance where my response to tower has been "hey what, uh, no?"

[Marauder]

For those of us with active non-towered airports, it is a way of life to "squeeze" out between the multiple trainers and gliders peppering the pattern. I don't do a rolling entry because I want to do once last check to make sure my heading is aligned with the runway. I also do my last LIFT to make sure I am good to go.

Another thing that complicates things is any IFR departures. Since we are served by Philly approach, forget about picking up your clearance in the air. This has led to several arguments with the airport management about IFR departures needs and the steady stream of training and glider activities.

I guess looking at the bright side, at least I'm not based at an airport where half of the planes don't fly.

[Seth]

Yes - the purpose of this was the legality of a line up and wait type of operation at a non towered field.  Is it legal?

 

At busy non towered fields there is often 4-6 aircraft in the pattern and a line up and getting onto the runway for takeoff before the landing aircraft has taken back off or cleared is the difference between sitting on the ground for 10+ min and departing.  

I feel communication when everyone is working together sometimes beats control towers.

The question is the legality.

-Seth

[Hank]

21 minutes ago, Seth said:

Yes - the purpose of this was the legality of a line up and wait type of operation at a non towered field.  Is it legal?

Everything not specifically denied is legal. The only reference anyone has posted is from the Controller's Handbook, which I as a pilot do not have. Or need . . . .

Why do you think it isn't legal? Why do you think controllers' limits (what other ones are there?) apply to pilots? How are we pilots supposed to know the controllers' rules? They aren't covered in PPL or Instrument training, nor any of the Flight Reviews or IPCs that I've had? 

Edited October 16, 2018 by Hank

[Bolter]

8 hours ago, N803RM said:

Many years ago, I was told to "taxi into position and hold", full length, there was a Cherokee holding in position mid field.  I was cleared for takeoff with the Cherokee holding.  I declined the takeoff, and the tower about dirtied his pants when he realized what was happening.   This was Chino Ca, runway 21 before the parallel runway 26 was built.

I listen to all tower and pilots communications, you can learn a lot from them.  The Cherokee never moved or said a word???

Line up and wait, can help, but can get you hurt.   Be safe.  

Not quite on topic, but I had a good example of listening to others at the airport.  I departed a non-towered airport with runway 13-31 and it was a calm day.  After I took off on 31 and was leaving the area, I heard two others making their calls as they were inbound.  One said landing 13, the other landing 31.  And I heard them both repeat this way, not seeming to hear the other.  It was not my place, but I went on CTAF and pointed out that they were not calling out the same runway and both arriving at the same time. 

No acknowledgment of what I said, but the next thing I heard, the runway 31 aircraft called that he was going to 13...

Situational awareness is a good thing, share it.

[Yetti]

I can't find a FAR covering an untowered airport runway.   Communicate and work it out.  See and be seen.   I kind of go into project manager mode and start telling people where they are and where I am and how I am going to integrate with them

[Marauder]

1 hour ago, Seth said:

Yes - the purpose of this was the legality of a line up and wait type of operation at a non towered field.  Is it legal?

 

At busy non towered fields there is often 4-6 aircraft in the pattern and a line up and getting onto the runway for takeoff before the landing aircraft has taken back off or cleared is the difference between sitting on the ground for 10+ min and departing.  

I feel communication when everyone is working together sometimes beats control towers.

The question is the legality.

-Seth

The AIM is filled with the word "uncontrolled" and it clearly reads to mean they are uncontrolled. From the AIM: "Use of the appropriate CTAF, combined with a visual alertness and application of the following recommended good operating practices (section 4.1.9), will enhance safety of flight into and out of all uncontrolled airports." 

Look up AIM section 4.1.9 https://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/publications/media/AIM.pdf

 

[Mooneymite]

8 minutes ago, Marauder said:

The AIM is filled with the word "uncontrolled" and it clearly reads to mean they are uncontrolled.

Wait a minute here....  you mean uncontrolled means uncontrolled?

How odd.  

[Marauder]

2 minutes ago, Mooneymite said:

Wait a minute here....  you mean uncontrolled means uncontrolled?

How odd.  

I know! Strange isn't it? I heard rumors the wild wild west was also uncontrolled!

[Mooneymite]

53 minutes ago, Marauder said:

I know! Strange isn't it? I heard rumors the wild wild west was also uncontrolled!

Someone needs to bring law and order to these lawless outposts of aviation!

Control towers to inflict CONTROL.  That's what we need for safety, security and to blot out all traces of the freedom of flight.

Humans should not exercise judgement and common sense without the rule of rules.  Bring on more FAA.

[carusoam]

On a 4k’ runway with two exits... end and midfield...

Most planes are off at the mid field exit...

Line up and wait occurs when somebody misses the exit and has to go another 2k’...

The person that was entering, ready to go, has to wait for the first plane to clear the runway...

Planes will be on final, base, and a couple on down wind...

Add in the people challenged to talk on the radio and fly at the same time...

Weekends are busy at my home drome...

Best regards,

-a-

[Yetti]

8 hours ago, Mooneymite said:

Someone needs to bring law and order to these lawless outposts of aviation!

Control towers to inflict CONTROL.  That's what we need for safety, security and to blot out all traces of the freedom of flight.

Humans should not exercise judgement and common sense without the rule of rules.  Bring on more FAA.

no one got no money for that kind of control.

Funny enough I used to have a hard time talking to tower and ATC because I was asking.  Then I switched and started telling them what I am going to do and let them correct me and my comms got much better

 

[Mooneymite]

12 minutes ago, Yetti said:

Then I switched and started telling them what I am going to do and let them correct me and my comms got much better

ATC provides service.  It is not your boss.

None of those faceless voices will die with you in the crash.