Panel Plastic

[jmbaute]

We have a 74C with the plastic cover on the panel. Considering an upgrade to the garmin G5. Am concerned about the "look" of this since the G5s mount on the surface and the plastic would need to be cut. I'd like to just remove the plastic altogether but the previous owner informs me that behind the plastic, it is pretty ugly. Has anyone else been in this situation? Are there other covers we could get in lieu of the plastic? have asked Lasar if they have panel blanks but they do not. I swear I've seen some vintage Mooneys in here with nice clean looking upgraded panels...would love to see pictures if you have them.

 

[gsxrpilot]

Download a free copy of SolidWorks with your EAA membership. Then layout your own panel. Take the file to your local metal shop and get the blank cut out. Get it painted to your specifications... you're now into it for about $200.  Remove the old panel and install the new one. This time with your instruments all lined up straight. Oh and BTW... flush mount your G5 while you're at it for a very nice, updated and professional look.

[Niko182]

you have the proper layout for your instruments, but its still somewhat a shotgun panel with it not being straight.
Do what @gsxrpilot offered and either make a panel yourself for 200 bucks, or most shops charge around 500 bucks for panels
layouts.

This is what you want

 

 

This is what it would look like without a new panel. this is fine, but it doesn't offer a flow of instruments, and I think the panel above looks a lot cleaner.
also make sure to get flush mounts. Its an extra 200 bucks and it makes the panel look way cleaner.


 

[Hank]

Here's what is behind that black plastic in my 1970 C . . . .

Mine broke into three pieces. I'd love a tracing of your plastic piece, or a layout with hole locations. I have access to multiple CAD systems at work. 

I may be interested in buying your overlay, if we can figure out how to ship it safely. 

Despite what @Niko182 says, keep the angled layout used by the factory, it fits more instruments into the panel than if you put them in perfectly horizontal lines. He only gets 10 instruments to the left of the radios. 

[Marauder]

3 hours ago, Hank said:

Here's what is behind that black plastic in my 1970 C . . . .

Mine broke into three pieces. I'd love a tracing of your plastic piece, or a layout with hole locations. I have access to multiple CAD systems at work. 

I may be interested in buying your overlay, if we can figure out how to ship it safely. 

Despite what @Niko182 says, keep the angled layout used by the factory, it fits more instruments into the panel than if you put them in perfectly horizontal lines. He only gets 10 instruments to the left of the radios. 

Everytime I see that picture I flash back to a WWII movie and think I am looking at a poor fighter pilot who just had his panel shot up. 

[Hank]

8 minutes ago, Marauder said:

Everytime I see that picture I flash back to a WWII movie and think I am looking at a poor fighter pilot who just had his panel shot up. 

I almost wrote, "no, this is not combat damage" when I posted the picture, but thought that might confuse @jmbaute !!  

[jmbaute]

Thanks to all, lots of good ideas here. I asked my IA about fabricating a new panel but he said it would require sign off by FSDO. But maybe if it is just an overlay then that is a different story? I have reverse engineering and fabrication experience, I could do this and am willing if legal.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Hank]

As can be seen in my photo, the plastic overlay is simply a cosmetic overlay; the actual panel is exposed beneath it. Fortunately, as PPL holders, we can remove / repair / fabricate / install cosmetic covers. S'what I'm working on now, and why I value a tracing of your existing plastic part before you start cutting on it.

[gsxrpilot]

3 minutes ago, jmbaute said:

Thanks to all, lots of good ideas here. I asked my IA about fabricating a new panel but he said it would require sign off by FSDO. But maybe if it is just an overlay then that is a different story? I have reverse engineering and fabrication experience, I could do this and am willing if legal.

Find a different AI. I would venture to guess that 50% of the Mooney's M20B through M20F have updated panel layouts... and none of them have FSDO sign off.

[Hephaestus]

A list of "preventive maintenance" allowed is specifically listed in FAR 43 appendix A (4) c and is copied below:

(11) Repairing upholstery and decorative furnishings of the cabin, cockpit, or balloon basket interior when the repairing does not require disassembly of any primary structure or operating system or interfere with an operating system or affect the primary structure of the aircraft.

 

it is a cosmetic repair - the structure is behind it... 

[orionflt]

Panels do not require a FSDO sign off, it is considered a minor alteration and just require a log book sign off.

Brian

[Andy95W]

1 hour ago, jmbaute said:

I asked my IA about fabricating a new panel but he said it would require sign off by FSDO. 

This was the case 25 years ago.  I bought one of LASAR's panels back then for my first Mooney and they included a sample 337 to use as the basis for a Field Approval.

The conventional wisdom today (and supported by the FARs and the FAA) is that changing the instrument panel is a minor modification.  With that said, your FSDO might have some old-school inspectors who still interpret it the old way.

[Guest]

6 hours ago, Andy95W said:

This was the case 25 years ago.  I bought one of LASAR's panels back then for my first Mooney and they included a sample 337 to use as the basis for a Field Approval.

The conventional wisdom today (and supported by the FARs and the FAA) is that changing the instrument panel is a minor modification.  With that said, your FSDO might have some old-school inspectors who still interpret it the old way.

I would agree, especially the one mounted on rubber mounts, they offer no structural support to the airframe.

Clarence

[jmbaute]

10 hours ago, Hank said:

As can be seen in my photo, the plastic overlay is simply a cosmetic overlay; the actual panel is exposed beneath it. Fortunately, as PPL holders, we can remove / repair / fabricate / install cosmetic covers. S'what I'm working on now, and why I value a tracing of your existing plastic part before you start cutting on it.

Hank,

For sure I'd be willing to help in this regard. We aren't doing the work until the end of the year though. If I decide to DIY this and make a tracing I'll definitely get in touch. My thought would be to measure, then make a cad drawing. Sounds like a good rainy day project. I could even just upload the file here so others can use it.

[chrixxer]

Find a different AI. I would venture to guess that 50% of the Mooney's M20B through M20F have updated panel layouts... and none of them have FSDO sign off.

FWIW the repair station I've been doing avionics work at, at AVQ, took the same position. The shop in Oregon that's going to do my glass conversion, didn't bat an eye.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[gsxrpilot]

It might be a bit of a unique to Mooney situation here. As others have said, Mooney panels are not structural in anyway. There's a full tubular steel cage that is the structure for the cockpit. The panel is just a piece of aluminum that is attached to that steel structure. This is different than Beech, Cessna, Piper, etc...

I visited an avionics shop in Houston yesterday to inquire about the Aspen Max upgrade and a few other things. The subject of panel came up and the shop owner said just to get whoever cut my current panel, to make me a new panel if we decided we needed one. 

I gotta make sure @"Chocks" still has that file.

[Hank]

10 minutes ago, gsxrpilot said:

It might be a bit of a unique to Mooney situation here. As others have said, Mooney panels are not structural in anyway. There's a full tubular steel cage that is the structure for the cockpit. The panel is just a piece of aluminum that is attached to that steel structure. This is different than Beech, Cessna, Piper, etc...

I visited an avionics shop in Houston yesterday to inquire about the Aspen Max upgrade and a few other things. The subject of panel came up and the shop owner said just to get whoever cut my current panel, to make me a new panel if we decided we needed one. 

I gotta make sure @"Chocks" still has that file.

See if Chocks has a file for a stock 1970 C! I'm redoing my faceplate, since the factory plastic broke into several pieces when it was removed for instrument access . . . I'm having a devil of a time getting everything lined up and traced off. Hole position numbers would be wonderful! And yes, I have CAD at work to translate most anything, use it most days myself.

[gsxrpilot]

6 minutes ago, Hank said:

See if Chocks has a file for a stock 1970 C! I'm redoing my faceplate, since the factory plastic broke into several pieces when it was removed for instrument access . . . I'm having a devil of a time getting everything lined up and traced off. Hole position numbers would be wonderful! And yes, I have CAD at work to translate most anything, use it most days myself.

The process we went through was to make a panel using clear plexiglass (Lexan). I think we made a couple of them. The plane was in the avionics shop and the original panel and all instruments were out of the plane. So we were able to use the factory panel as a template and then just move stuff around until it looked right. We used a dry erase marker on the clear plastic to mock it up before cutting. Once the template was what we wanted, then we measured and mocked it up in SolidWorks. 

This was all for my M20K. Some of the measurements might transfer, but I'm sure he doesn't have a file specifically for a M20C. 

[chrixxer]

2 hours ago, gsxrpilot said:

It might be a bit of a unique to Mooney situation here.

Actually, the position taken by the folks in Tucson was, if there was a picture of the panel in the owner's manual with a legend (i.e., "this is the altimeter"), it couldn't be altered without a 337 or an STC. I think that's an absurd interpretation of ... Whatever they're interpreting. But they know their way around the S-Tec like nobody's business and they're exceedingly conscientious, careful, thorough, and pay attention to detail (at least in my experience, with avionics; I know someone else here will jump in with their subpar experience having an annual done by the same shop), so, I'm still using them for the pre-SkyView stuff that needs doing while I live with 20+ year old tech, for now :).

[ragedracer1977]

6 hours ago, chrixxer said:

Actually, the position taken by the folks in Tucson was, if there was a picture of the panel in the owner's manual with a legend (i.e., "this is the altimeter"), it couldn't be altered without a 337 or an STC. I think that's an absurd interpretation of ... Whatever they're interpreting. But they know their way around the S-Tec like nobody's business and they're exceedingly conscientious, careful, thorough, and pay attention to detail (at least in my experience, with avionics; I know someone else here will jump in with their subpar experience having an annual done by the same shop), so, I'm still using them for the pre-SkyView stuff that needs doing while I live with 20+ year old tech, for now :).

I’m over it, lol.  FWIW, the IA there signed off on my annual, with a new panel that doesn’t have a 337 or STC.  Didn’t seem to bother him at all.

[chrixxer]

4 minutes ago, ragedracer1977 said:

I’m over it, lol.  FWIW, the IA there signed off on my annual, with a new panel that doesn’t have a 337 or STC.  Didn’t seem to bother him at all.

Yeah, IDK about their IA, it was the avionics guy who wouldn't do a new panel install. <shrug>

[Hank]

35 minutes ago, chrixxer said:

Yeah, IDK about their IA, it was the avionics guy who wouldn't do a new panel install. <shrug>

What, he doesn't like STCs? Guess he doesn't install GPS Nav/Coms in vintage planes,  either, since the panel drawing doesn't have anything labeled "GPS" . . . . .

[chrixxer]

10 hours ago, Hank said:

What, he doesn't like STCs? Guess he doesn't install GPS Nav/Coms in vintage planes,  either, since the panel drawing doesn't have anything labeled "GPS" . . . . .

No, his point was if something is installed and labeled in the owner's manual, that's where it stays absent an STC or field approval. The electronics in the panel aren't labeled in the owner's manual (see attached).

So I guess, through his logic, what gets installed in that stack isn't part of the aircraft's certification ... Again, I don't think it's an accurate interpretation, but it's what his position is.

[gsxrpilot]

Yeah that's some flawed logic. 

You could just as easily say the diagram in the owners manual is identifying the instrument, and saying nothing about it's location.

 

[jmbaute]

On 10/1/2018 at 10:53 PM, Hank said:

As can be seen in my photo, the plastic overlay is simply a cosmetic overlay; the actual panel is exposed beneath it. Fortunately, as PPL holders, we can remove / repair / fabricate / install cosmetic covers. S'what I'm working on now, and why I value a tracing of your existing plastic part before you start cutting on it.

Hank, I've sent you a PM with a question.