An Absolutely Horrible Day!

[LANCECASPER]

31 minutes ago, donkaye said:

I'm about to leave for FedEx to overnight Air Power my Deposit on my Reman to get the 8 week cycle going.  Does anyone know of any less expensive distributor for Lycoming?  No way am I doing just a tear down and rebuild.  I don't trust outside overhaul shops.  I've heard too many horror stories.  Plus the time frames are about the same.  I don't expect to get the plane back in the air for a minimum of 3 months.  The insurance company is going to pay for that lack of availability if I have anything to say about it, because I use my plane extensively in travel for flight instruction.  This whole experience is not going to be a cheap issue for them.

Air Power has a reputation of the best deals on Factory Engines. I'm in TX so I'd have to pay state sales tax on an engine from AirPower since they are also in TX. You're in CA so hopefully you can avoid that if you buy it directly from them as an out-of-state purchase. It'll be shipped to you from Williamsport PA no matter what distributor you use.

 

Lycoming's website still shows this discount matrix, so if they honor it you would get a Rebuilt (zero Time logbook) for an overhauled price.

https://www.lycoming.com/sites/default/files/2017-04-18 Loyalty Price Matrix.pdf

[M20C_AV8R]

8 hours ago, donkaye said:

I didn't get much sleep last night.  Now I'm really worried about the gear motor and everything associated with the gear retraction.  The stress on the motor and structure trying to retract with all the weight of the airplane on the wheels makes me wonder about all of it.

As mentioned earlier this is even more similar to what happened with my plane, but, I am/was not as savvy an owner at the time, my plane was new to me in every way. I had to finally insist that the motor be rebuilt after two failed attempts with new rods etc that the motor be pulled off and sent to be rebuilt, I used George’s electric in Sacramento, I was glad I had them look at it and fix, my motor did need attention and things would have never been right, even after having that done the shop that busted my plane insisted that their mistake did not damage my motor (they were wrong) take control on what you believe needs to be done and don’t end up like me believing the shop had everything fixed, signed off etc and then ended up on the first flight after repairs having the gear unable to come down via the normal process, thankfully the manual deployment worked. I am hoping for the best and so sorry that this happened, I truly empathize 

[Tommy]

I know this is definitely a hindsight and everyone's circumstance is different but this is why I always insist on owner-assisted maintenance. I also particularly like to participate in the gear retraction test because it's the only time I get to see what my plane looks like in the air!! And I always insist on doing the hand pumping just to refresh my memory of the procedure. And if I can have the plane on the jack for the shortest possible time the better so I ask the shop to do the gear test early on. 

However, I am very surprised that they do the gear retraction with only one mechanic? The fact that it comes all the way up and all the way down doesn't mean there are no issues in between! Surely someone else will be standing outside the plane to watch the entire process. 

I know it's very easy to blame on the individuals such as pilots and mechanics but it does sound like this shop is over-working its staff...

[donkaye]

21 minutes ago, LANCECASPER said:

Air Power has a reputation of the best deals on Factory Engines. I'm in TX so I'd have to pay state sales tax on an engine from AirPower since they are also in TX. You're in CA so hopefully you can avoid that if you buy it directly from them as an out-of-state purchase. It'll be shipped to you from Williamsport PA no matter what distributor you use.

 

Lycoming's website still shows this discount matrix, so if they honor it you would get a Rebuilt (zero Time logbook) for an overhauled price.

https://www.lycoming.com/sites/default/files/2017-04-18 Loyalty Price Matrix.pdf

That would have been nice, but the engine I have on it now was a Reman, so the discount is only 1,700.  This will be the 3rd engine on the plane.

[Guest]

7 hours ago, thinwing said:

Well damn...a badly distracted mechanic has to do 3 discreet actions to cause this accident..first power up master than select gear up than walk over to left wing pitot tube ,apply rubber hose and roll up to close airspeed  safety switch to activate gear retraction all the time not noticing the aircraft was not up on jacks!!!I just can't believe this coming from the shop (I'm not naming names but you have posted previous mention of who does your annuals so it's no secret)with such a stellar reputation.So it just proves a shops work can only be as good as their worst mechanic.Im so sorry it has happened Don....

I’ve been married 20 years.  I prefer to remember all of the good meals, rather than the one bad one.  This case could be similar.

Clarence

[RobertGary1]

2 hours ago, jackn said:

Strongly disagree. There are ‘stuff happens, there are ‘Brain farts’. I feel This was gross negligence caused by the mechanic being too lazy to check everything was in order before lifting the gear handle. 

Same could be said about a gear up landing but I’m not casting stones. 

-Robert

[RobertGary1]

1 hour ago, donkaye said:

I'm about to leave for FedEx to overnight Air Power my Deposit on my Reman to get the 8 week cycle going.  Does anyone know of any less expensive distributor for Lycoming?  No way am I doing just a tear down and rebuild.  I don't trust outside overhaul shops.  I've heard too many horror stories.  Plus the time frames are about the same.  I don't expect to get the plane back in the air for a minimum of 3 months.  The insurance company is going to pay for that lack of availability if I have anything to say about it, because I use my plane extensively in travel for flight instruction.  This whole experience is not going to be a cheap issue for them.

I used AirPower as well. They say they make $250 and the rest goes to Lycoming. Of course saved thousands in sales tax using them. Services afterwards was great. One day new mags showed up about a year later. Asked why and they said there was an SB on the mags so they decided to send me new ones. 

-Robert

[Guest]

1 hour ago, donkaye said:

I'm about to leave for FedEx to overnight Air Power my Deposit on my Reman to get the 8 week cycle going.  Does anyone know of any less expensive distributor for Lycoming?  No way am I doing just a tear down and rebuild.  I don't trust outside overhaul shops.  I've heard too many horror stories.  Plus the time frames are about the same.  I don't expect to get the plane back in the air for a minimum of 3 months.  The insurance company is going to pay for that lack of availability if I have anything to say about it, because I use my plane extensively in travel for flight instruction.  This whole experience is not going to be a cheap issue for them.

Why are you fronting the money and not the shop or their insurance company?

Clarence

[RobertGary1]

1 hour ago, M20Doc said:

Why are you fronting the money and not the shop or their insurance company?

Clarence

I suspect the insurance company would only pay for an inspection but he’s ordering a reman from Lycoming. 

-Robert

[kmyfm20s]

2 minutes ago, RobertGary1 said:

I suspect the insurance company would only pay for an inspection but he’s ordering a reman from Lycoming. 

-Robert

Not to mention the time it will take for the insurance company to issue the check. Way to get the ball rolling!

[donkaye]

2 hours ago, M20Doc said:

Why are you fronting the money and not the shop or their insurance company?

Clarence

OH, I'm going to be getting that money back--and it better be soon.  It was just a deposit on the Reman right now to get the ball rolling.  The balance of the Reman money won't be required until 2 weeks before shipping and that's nearly 2 months from now.  By that time I expect to have the claim settled.  I don't think an adjuster has even been assigned, and I didn't want to delay even one day the process of getting the engine build started.

I believe this is going to be one expensive claim between what would have been the teardown cost, the prop repair or replacement, loss of use of the plane that I use in my flight instructing business to travel to students when necessary, the diminutive value had I not upgraded to the reman (discussed this extensively with Bennett Bibel a previous Mooney owner and insurance expert and expert witness in insurance cases), the replacement of all other broken parts, and who knows what else at this time (Did I miss anything?).

The shop itself so far has bent over backwards to make this right.  We're only into this 2 days now.  Thank goodness they have insurance.  Otherwise mine would have had to be used (and that gone against me), and other unpleasant remedies sought.

I'll document the process here as I go through this, for the benefit of others who might sometime go through a similar experience in the future.

[Yetti]

for the actuator I would go here  http://www.aeromotorsllc.com/aeromotorsllc/

Before George’s electric in Sacramento

We ended up fixing the actuator ourselves after having the plane down for several months after it had been to George's.

[Mooney_Allegro]

Don,

I'm very very sorry to read about your airplane.  I know how important your plane is to you and I'm sure you're devastated.  I certainly would be!  I'm wondering if your cockpit instruments are ok internally after such a hard hit to the ground.  I'm sure it didn't hit gently if the propeller blades twisted, but I could be wrong.   

Back in 2012, my former 1998 J model had a new Lycoming Factory Reman installed that I bought from Air Power.   It was the day of my first break-in flight and as I walked up to my plane, the mechanic was about to put the cowling on so I could test fly the plane.  I told the mechanic to hold off, as I wanted to look inside the engine.  Luckily I did, or I would have been dead most likely shortly after takeoff when I crashed into the housing development in a ball of flames.   The mechanic in Henderson, NV never tightened the main fuel line that goes to the spider assembly.  It was so loose that it wasn't even finger tight.  I showed the mechanic, and he never apologized or said a word about it.  He walked inside his hangar, got a wrench and tightned it, then put the cowling back on.  Never said a thing.

After that, all trust was lost.  I didn't fly the plane until I hired a mechanic from Lone Mountain Aviation out of KVGT to come over that next week to inspect the entire installation.  That was a disgrace something that important was overlooked.  Same with your incident.   I'm sorry, but we pay A LOT of money for people to inspect and maintain our planes.  It's the least they could do is care about what they are doing.   I think the majority of the time they do a great job, but after that incident I take nothing for granted anymore.  

[Lance Link]

Very unfortunate that this is so much worse than originally thought Don.

Advantage Aviation in Palo Alto has a 231 they rent.  I get the impression it is not flown much at all.  You may be able to make a deal with the owner whereby you keep the plane at your airport in lieu of Palo Alto.  I suspect he'd like to have the income from the time you'd put on the plane and it might be worth it to him to have it based elsewhere for a few months.  Then of course let the liability carrier pay for the rental time as part of your loss of use.  Then at least you'd have an available plane to fly, even if it is not anywhere as nice as yours.

[donkaye]

54 minutes ago, Lance Link said:

Very unfortunate that this is so much worse than originally thought Don.

Advantage Aviation in Palo Alto has a 231 they rent.  I get the impression it is not flown much at all.  You may be able to make a deal with the owner whereby you keep the plane at your airport in lieu of Palo Alto.  I suspect he'd like to have the income from the time you'd put on the plane and it might be worth it to him to have it based elsewhere for a few months.  Then of course let the liability carrier pay for the rental time as part of your loss of use.  Then at least you'd have an available plane to fly, even if it is not anywhere as nice as yours.

Thanks for all the ideas everyone.

 

[Yetti]

20 hours ago, donkaye said:

I didn't get much sleep last night.  Now I'm really worried about the gear motor and everything associated with the gear retraction.  The stress on the motor and structure trying to retract with all the weight of the airplane on the wheels makes me wonder about all of it.

It would be pretty impressive force to get the gear to come out of overcenter with weight on it. (A testament to the gear actuator).  Sounds like just the nose gear pulled up.   But there was lots of pull on the main gear.   Absolutely all new rods to all three gear.   New Actuator.   Would want to check the actuator attachment point to the frame. Then the rod connections to the main gear.   What gave? is the question to be asking.   It would be possible for the main gear trusses to be bent.  And the main gear attachment points, and the spar where the main gear attach.  check the wings for wrinkles. rivets for cracked paint.

Not an engineer, but seems like you would want one involved since lots of things have been overstressed.

[RobertGary1]

I don’t think it takes too much to pull the gear out of over Center. 

I had a Bonanza a couple years ago and a friend pulled the gear up too soon and settled on the gear in transition.  Far worse than a gear up landing. 

The insurance company wanted to charge me betterment on the 200 hour prop and engine. It was close enough they offered to total it out. I took the deal, I really didn’t need another plane anyway. But it was to nicest looking v tail I’ve seen.  Someone bought it and flew it back east. 

-Robert 

[Bravoman]

When I got my reman a couple of years back I went through AirPower as they were the least expensive supplier. I understand they are the volume king so to speak and I guess that is why they have the best prices on the Lycoming factory engines. 

[Jetlag]

Hartzell is making a top prop for the bravo. They have someone's plane now and are doing the stc. Probably won't be done in time for you, but it would be close. But something to think about. 

 

[Cayman44]

Sorry - getting into this discussion late.  I'm amazed that the AC slipped off the jack.  When I got my '89 Bravo three years ago, I broke down and bought three alpha jacks ($300 ea) and found those round yellow lift balls at Aircraft Spruce that replace the tie down rings and fit neatly into the top Alpha jack cups and stay there.  The nose lift point behind the left cowl flap with its different thread was a dilemma.  Eventually I found a hardened steel hex bolt (seems like 24 thread) at Ace hardware with a round head like a carriage bolt that fit perfectly into the jack cup.  After tightening the bolt as far up a it would go, I decided to leave it there as it has no interference with the cowl flaps.  Someday I might get a shorter bolt, but anytime I change tires or brakes or do annuals, I swing the gear and I am never in doubt that the jacks might slip (but still cross my fingers because it just looks weird with no feet on the ground.) Carl

[steingar]

On 9/29/2018 at 8:04 PM, M20Doc said:

I’ve been married 20 years.  I prefer to remember all of the good meals, rather than the one bad one.  This case could be similar.

Mrs. Steingar definitely doesn't say that about my cooking.

[xcrmckenna]

I’ve been married 20 years.  I prefer to remember all of the good meals, rather than the one bad one.  This case could be similar.
Clarence

This isn’t just one bad meal. This is your better half cheating on you and telling you it was one time and it will never happen again.

Don said the shop is bending over backwards to make things right. That is great, and he’ll probably continue to use the shop because of the follow up service. But I think even the shop would understand if he didn’t use them again.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[thinwing]

On 9/29/2018 at 5:04 PM, M20Doc said:

I’ve been married 20 years.  I prefer to remember all of the good meals, rather than the one bad one.  This case could be similar.

Clarence

I know the shop and the owner and I would expect nothing less including a loaner 231 they might have laying arround.Im thinking the mechanic who pulled this stunt was prob also beating him self up and not sleeping well.

[flyboy0681]

34 minutes ago, thinwing said:

I know the shop and the owner and I would expect nothing less including a loaner 231 they might have laying arround.Im thinking the mechanic who pulled this stunt was prob also beating him self up and not sleeping well.

Maybe I'm just naive (very possible), but do many shops have a loaner K model hanging around? Others have talked of the insurance company paying for a rental during the entire repair period. My policy only provides for a 30 day rental and I've been told that's very generous.

 

 

[thinwing]

2 hours ago, flyboy0681 said:

Maybe I'm just naive (very possible), but do many shops have a loaner K model hanging around? Others have talked of the insurance company paying for a rental during the entire repair period. My policy only provides for a 30 day rental and I've been told that's very generous.

 

 

Not many ,but this one  might

Edited October 1, 2018 by thinwing