Moving On??

[Coolshot]

I have been a Mooney pilot and owner for about 25 years: first with an E model (remember the Johnson bar), then a J model and now a gorgeous 2005 Ovation 3GX - immaculately maintained (used to be Lee Trotter's plane which I bought from Lee last year).  My mission has recently changed and I find that I need more altitude to get above the weather, need pressurization and real-time radar.  I am therefore considering a Mirage.  Any Mooney owners who have moved from a Mirage to a Mooney who can tell me what it would be to move to a Mirage?  Also, I will be selling my Ovation, so if you know someone who will take special care of a special plane, let me know.  I have learnt a lot from this community and will miss you guys!!!  Stay well.

[mike_elliott]

3 minutes ago, Coolshot said:

I have been a Mooney pilot and owner for about 25 years: first with an E model (remember the Johnson bar), then a J model and now a gorgeous 2005 Ovation 3GX - immaculately maintained (used to be Lee Trotter's plane which I bought from Lee last year).  My mission has recently changed and I find that I need more altitude to get above the weather, need pressurization and real-time radar.  I am therefore considering a Mirage.  Any Mooney owners who have moved from a Mirage to a Mooney who can tell me what it would be to move to a Mirage?  Also, I will be selling my Ovation, so if you know someone who will take special care of a special plane, let me know.  I have learnt a lot from this community and will miss you guys!!!  Stay well.

Salil, have you considered a TBM? Give me a ring if you want to know of a good one. Yes, your beautiful O3 will be a welcome addition to some lucky new steward.

[FloridaMan]

I have a friend who had an Acclaim and now has a Meridian (whichever one the turboprop is). I'll see if I can get his ear. 

[BradB]

@Coolshot , I went from my Acclaim to a Meridian 6 months ago.   The pressurization is a game changer.    The first few training flights were rather terrifying.  The amount of power from the turbine engine took a few flights to get used to, but I quickly settled in.   Expect some mandatory training from insurance as well as yearly recurrent training.   My initial training was about 15 hours of sim and real flying over about 4 days.  I think the ground school portion was about 20 hours.    Legacyflighttraining.com has an online syllabus you can take a look at.   Expect higher insurance costs, too.

Consider joining MMOPA.com. There are quite a few over there that have made the transition from a Mooney.   There are a few recent threads detailing some of the transitions.   Some might be more relevant to your situation, as well.  I have never flown the piston version of the PA-46.

You are already used to being on top of your airspeed management.  That will serve you well in the transition.

If you can swing it, try out the turbine version.   If you can’t swing it, make sure that you never fly in someone’s Meridian or TBM.  Best to not even know.

Let me know if I can answer something more specifically. 

 

Brad

2006 Meridian N951TB

   

[carusoam]

BradB did it...

Jerry did it...

Jesse’s new website lists two for sale...

Marauder documented flying right seat in one...

Turbine and pressurization seem like strong reasons to graduate from the Mooney line...

until Mooney builds a Turbine version or Rocket engineering builds one....

Don’t be afraid to stay on MS... once a Mooniac, always a Mooniac.... 

Best regards,

-a-

[LANCECASPER]

I went from owning a Bravo myself to partnership in a new Mirage in 2000 and the pressurization and cabin were nice. The Bravo was a little faster but the Mirage was much more comfortable. During the time I had it though it, with less than 200 TTAE it went through Lycoming Service Bulletin 552 where the engine had to be sent off to Lycoming for a new crankshaft. (Later some Bravos had were subject to a similar SB). The only problem . . Lycoming didn't have any crankshafts. The airplane was grounded around 10 months.

Personal opinion . . . I think you are asking too much of a turbo charged piston single engine (Lycoming TIO-540-AE2A) to constantly operate under the conditions that this airplane operates. Keep in mind this has twin turbos and intercoolers but no oil cooled exhaust valve guides as the Bravo has. If you religiously keep the CHT's below 400 and run it conservatively you could probably get a decent life out of it, but if you push it hard expect to go through cylinders. Who knows what temperatures the exhaust valve guides are when the CHTs are at 400? During annuals many engines fail the wobble test. The Mirage airframe gets high marks, but the engine falls short of the task.

After losing confidence in the Mirage we picked up an extra partner and went to a Meridian which was amazing, but after adding the third partner we just had a bad partnership. The PT-6 turbine up front is what that airframe needs to do everything expected out of it. Only drawback of the Meridian is that it had much less range than the Mirage. We had the 140 gallon STC in the Mirage so it could go a long ways. The Meridian range was less than 1000 nm. The new M600 solves the range issue.

[Jerry 5TJ]

The step from a Mooney to a PA46 turboprop is going to take some insurance mandated initial training and some time.  All the systems are new to you & there are more of them. The weather decision making for 1000 mile legs in the lower FL takes some acclimation.  Turbine engine management is easier but different.  

IMO the JetProp and Meridian are easier to fly than a Mooney:  Ample power, an ability to go from high power to zero thrust quickly, no mixture or prop or cowl flap management. 

As for PA46 range: Only the new M600 can beat the range of an original Malibu with the 310 hp Contentinal cruising LOP.    

If you can stand the capital cost of the turbine you will likely find the on-going maintenance cheaper and certainly less frequent.  Forgot 25 hour oil changes: The PT6A interval is 800 hours or more.  

 

[INA201]

I grew up with the current VP of sales with Cirrus(head of customer experience). I also had a commercial pilot friend who flew a corporate owned Mirage for two years.  My opinion on this is unbiased in that I cannot afford either aircraft so I merely sit on the sidelines while enjoying the flight experiences on occasion. My opinion on the Cirrus Jet is that it is a great aircraft in comparison with the TBM, Mirage, Meridian etc. The refinements of the Cirrus jet is phenomenal.   The Mirage always had issues. It seems to me they have put way too much on an engine to make the Mirage work for the numbers. The cockpit is tight in the Mirage and roomy in the Cirrus. While I’m not a fan of the Cirrus 20 and 22s I think the jet is done “right.”  The Mooney is certainly a better all around machine for effieciency, speed, and maintenance for most missions while the Cirrus jet would be my next step up to cabin class pressurized aircraft(if I could afford it). Maybe this helps. 

[carusoam]

Ina,

We’re gonna need some pics of the C-jet...   I mean Coolshot is going to need a pic if you got one....

Looks like Insurance always gets more demanding as the plane has stronger capabilities...

Best regards,

-a-

[Bravoman]

I am an agile 6’1 210 pounder and I have a lot of difficulty getting in and  out of the cockpit of the pa-46 line. For me that would be a non starter. 

[mike_elliott]

3 minutes ago, Bravoman said:

I am an agile 6’1 210 pounder and I have a lot of difficulty getting in and  out of the cockpit of the pa-46 line. For me that would be a non starter. 

It wont be for Coolshot

 

[carusoam]

I was busy looking at Jerry’s instrument panel... I didn’t see the issues regarding getting in the PA46...

Is that because of getting in through the front seats is kinda tight?

Reminds me of exiting the O, after the kids push the copilot seat all the way forwards...

Just asking for a friend... 

Best regards,

-a-

[Bravoman]

Exceedingly tight. I would have never believed it if it were described to me and I hadn’t tried it myself. Once you squeeze into the pilot seat it is fine. There was a mirage at my MSC and I was invited to try to get into the cockpit to illustrate this point.

[Jerry 5TJ]

I say the hardest part in flying the JetProp is getting to the pilot’s seat.  (6’2” 190#) My current JetProp has the front seat STC mod which helps significantly with leg room but does nothing to ease the entry. 

Before buying this plane I did what I called “the sit test” in a number of models I considered buying. Agree that for ease of entry/exit the Cirrus jet and Eclipse Jet are far better.  TBM with the pilot door is somewhat better than PA46.  Phenom 100 and Cessna M2 were not very comfortable for me up front.   Epic and Kestrel were good “sits” but they are mostly vaporware still.  

(All of them, including the PA46, are very comfortable in the back seats.  Maybe it’s time to hire a couple of young pilots, sit in the back & think strategic thoughts. Like how I’m going to pay for that new Gulfstream)  

Speaking strictly of comfort while seated the Ovation fit me slightly better than my JetProp.  But: In the Ovation I couldn’t move around much.  

In PA46 I can rotate 90 degrees and put my feet in the aisle.  Better by far I can, with another pilot in the right seat, get up and go aft for a few minutes to stretch.  Even in a mere 4 hour flight that is very refreshing.  

At Sun n Fun this year Marauder and I got a tip on how to get to the pilot seat in the PA46: Go in backwards.  It helps as your knee bends normally to step over the spar.   That tip came from a TBM930 salesman...

 

[Jerry 5TJ]

9 hours ago, carusoam said:

...Looks like Insurance always gets more demanding as the plane has stronger capabilities...

Yep.

The FAA says you can step directly from your Bravo or Acclaim into a single turboprop but your insurer says “not if you want our coverage.” 

For PA46 turboprop variants the insurance mandate is a 5 day initial and 2 day annual recurrent training with an approved provider. Then additional requirements by individual:  

With no prior turbine time I had to do 25 hours dual instruction or solo before carrying passengers.  My aviation partner got credit for his 400 hours in the backseat of FA-18s (which he privately admitted were not useful as JetProp preparation) and he was released after the 5 day initial without further adult supervision.  

The Eclipse Jet initial including type rating was quoted at 14 days (consecutive-no time off) followed by mentor pilot dual time of 25-50 hours until he signs you off.   

Cirrus has a comprehensive training program for their jet.  It takes over a week if you are current, have sharp IFR skills and know the G1000 well.   Then you fly with a mentor pilot.  

[Marauder]

I say the hardest part in flying the JetProp is getting to the pilot’s seat.  (6’2” 190#) My current JetProp has the front seat STC mod which helps significantly with leg room but does nothing to ease the entry. 

Before buying this plane I did what I called “the sit test” in a number of models I considered buying. Agree that for ease of entry/exit the Cirrus jet and Eclipse Jet are far better.  TBM with the pilot door is somewhat better than PA46.  Phenom 100 and Cessna M2 were not very comfortable for me up front.   Epic and Kestrel were good “sits” but they are mostly vaporware still.  

(All of them, including the PA46, are very comfortable in the back seats.  Maybe it’s time to hire a couple of young pilots, sit in the back & think strategic thoughts. Like how I’m going to pay for that new Gulfstream)  

Speaking strictly of comfort while seated the Ovation fit me slightly better than my JetProp.  But: In the Ovation I couldn’t move around much.  

In PA46 I can rotate 90 degrees and put my feet in the aisle.  Better by far I can, with another pilot in the right seat, get up and go aft for a few minutes to stretch.  Even in a mere 4 hour flight that is very refreshing.  

At Sun n Fun this year Marauder and I got a tip on how to get to the pilot seat in the PA46: Go in backwards.  It helps as your knee bends normally to step over the spar.   That tip came from a TBM930 salesman...

 

 

When I first arrived to fly with Jerry in his PA46, there was about 30 seconds of “Jerry I don’t think I’m going to fit up here” going through my head. Part of the issue was Jerry’s plane’s former owner had the co-pilot seat built up for his short wife.

 

It is still is a snug cockpit. But certainly comfortable enough for a nap.

 

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

[Jerry 5TJ]

1 hour ago, Marauder said:

 

....It is still is a snug cockpit. But certainly comfortable enough for a nap.

 

At least George was awake.

[Marauder]

Just now, Jerry 5TJ said:

At least George was awake.

Personally I think you were peeking!

[Coolshot]

You guys are funny.  Thank you for your responses.

Firstly, I am considering a Mirage (turbo), not a Meridian (turbine).  BradB, since I cant swing it, I will be sure not to fly in someones Meridian or TBM.  But if I do close on the deal, will be sure to let all of you know my views on Mooney vs Mirage.

Carusoam: 25 years of Mooney, I dont plan to get off this space.

Flew in a friends Mirage last week.  Really cool.  Lots of room.  In the back, you dont need headsets.  I didnt check the db level but my doctor friend had a baby he was flying without headsets (and a couple of dogs) and a toddler - and the plane is quiet, the A/C is cool and the plane gets going nicely at flight levels.  Someone did mention that getting into the plane is really easy but getting to the pilot and co-pilots seats is certainly a pain.  Its a tight squeeze.  But just like the Mooney, once you get the hang of the technique, I found it to be easy.

 

Thanks for all the advice folks...

[BradB]

@Coolshotthe airframe is great.  You will enjoy the room for the passengers.   In the piston or turbine there are are few things to keep in mind with the PA46.   

I think the wing loading is higher on the Mooney and it seemed to handle the turbulence better.   The GFC700 autopilot in my Mooney was light years better then the Magic1500.   But both are better than me.   There are a few extra fixed costs that you will need to endure.    My hanger rent went up over $250/mo.    For the first year at least, my insurance is 3x higher.  I don’t have to buy TKS fluid anymore.  But instead I get to buy agemaster protectant for the boots ($320+/quart) and icex so the ice doesn’t stick to the boots (well over $200/qt).    But those do last a while.   Someone on MMOPA estimated that each landing burns over $3 of rubber from the tires.   Also, the PA-46 incurs higher landing and parking fees in many places than your Mooney used to   

I’m not saying this to dissuade you at all.   Just supplying information that I think you will soon be learning.   

Always a Mooniac, 

brad.  

[LANCECASPER]

Annuals on the Mirage also run 2-3 times as much as the Mooney. plus any time that you want to do avionics work, since it's a pressure vessel the cost goes up.

[Coolshot]

Thanks for the cost info.  My hangar rent will be going up by about $750/mo!

I do have a GFC 700 in my Mooney and the PA-46 I will buy will have the same.  I love my GFC 700. 

I am expecting about $1,360/hour for a 100 hour/year use; so $136000/year is my figuring with insurance, fuel, annual, general maintenance recurrent training, financing costs/cost of money and hangar.  A whopping amount - makes you stop and think! $118.5K of this is fixed with zero hours!!!  On an Apples to Apples basis (again factoring in cost of money and all those things, my Mooney costs $57K/year.  So the PA 46 is about 2.4X!!!

[Bob_Belville]

Salil, $136k... I wonder how many miles that would buy with Netjets?  

[Coolshot]

Several!!!

But its about the fun of flying (I think).  I think all rational thought is out of the window!

[mike_elliott]

Swati deserves the best...get that TBM