New PPL and just bought a Mooney M20F - I have a few questions!

[sdflysurf]

Hello all!  New to the forum, just got my PPL recently and I have 120 hours total time in cessna 152 and 172 airplanes.  I just bought a Mooney M20F and I had a few questions for the forum:

1) About how many hours with my instructor should I anticipate to get my complex endorsement and feel comfortable in this type/model? (I know my mileage may vary but just wondering).

2) What should I look for in decent update to NAV/Com and ADS-B equipment?  I don't want to update to full PFD just yet, but the avionics in this plane are so old that I must do something....and I don't mind installing "good-used" and I would love to do some of the work myself if possible (I have complex electronic systems experience).  I am used to flying with the Garmin GNS430 with GMA340 and GTX327 in the cessnas.

3) I have seen specs on the IO-360-AIA as both 180hp and 200hp - which is it?

4) I might need to replace the current Lasar 201 windshield - is that a difficult task to replace it with the same model windshield?  (any ideas how much I should budget in labor hours - I will not be doing any of that work as I have no experience with that).

I look forward to participating in the forum!

[Marauder]

Hello all!  New to the forum, just got my PPL recently and I have 120 hours total time in cessna 152 and 172 airplanes.  I just bought a Mooney M20F and I had a few questions for the forum:
1) About how many hours with my instructor should I anticipate to get my complex endorsement and feel comfortable in this type/model? (I know my mileage may vary but just wondering).
2) What should I look for in decent update to NAV/Com and ADS-B equipment?  I don't want to update to full PFD just yet, but the avionics in this plane are so old that I must do something....and I don't mind installing "good-used" and I would love to do some of the work myself if possible (I have complex electronic systems experience).  I am used to flying with the Garmin GNS430 with GMA340 and GTX327 in the cessnas.
3) I have seen specs on the IO-360-AIA as both 180hp and 200hp - which is it?
4) I might need to replace the current Lasar 201 windshield - is that a difficult task to replace it with the same model windshield?  (any ideas how much I should budget in labor hours - I will not be doing any of that work as I have no experience with that).
I look forward to participating in the forum!

1) Depends on you, the instructor and perhaps what your insurance company requires. At one time to get the complex endorsement I think you needed 10 hours. That may have changed. Regardless, fly as much as you need to in order to feel comfortable and safe in the plane. This isn’t your grandma’s plane
2) Post or show us a picture of what you have. There are a lot of options both new and used. Would help knowing what you are starting with, including whether the plane is ADS-B compliant.
3) O-360 is 180 HP, IO-360 is 200 HP. O-360 is carbureted while the IO-360 is fuel injected.
4) I just got a couple of quotes on the windshield. Around a $1000 for the glass. Can’t help you on the time. My SWTA 201 mod has screws. You might have rivets to drill out.

What year F?


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[kortopates]

Get yourself a good Mooney specific instructor and take your time learning all about the plane and doing all kinds of landings and takeoff's. You'll know when you are feeling comfortable with the plane.
Electric gear & flaps F model?
Are you in San Diego, which field?
I am at KSEE.


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[jaylw314]

Seems like there've been a bunch of new Mooney owners lately, that's nice to see.

There is no specific time requirements for the complex endorsement, it's essentially at the discretion of your instructor to sign off.  I assume you'll get it from the same instructor doing your transition/insurance-required training?

[smccray]

I transitioned from a 172 @ ~80 hours to my current J.  It's a transition, but it's doable.  I still remember my first flight- I was WAY behind the airplane.  She'll take a lot longer to slow down than you're used to, but you will get used to it.  Pull the power back long before you actually need to- she'll take a couple miles to slow down to gear speed in level flight.

Enjoy it- you're going to have a great time!

[carusoam]

Welcome aboard, SDF!

1) start catching up on your POH reading.  That has tremendous numbers of answers of questions you haven’t thought of yet... every new owner does it...

2) IO360s are 200hp. O360s are 180.

3) We have a guy... that sells used radios... find Alan...  @Alan Fox he has a list of available things around here...

4) +1 Mooney Specific Transition Training.  No reason to find some things out by experimentation when they can be delivered in an organized, safe fashion...

5) Your Insurance should be telling you how many hours of training you need.  and how many hours of solo will follow...

6) After 20 hours you will have a good feeling yourself how much is needed.

7) There are quite a few MSers that have purchased a Mooney with around 100 hours in there log book... over the years...

8) Have you read the logs for your plane?  For what’s in your plane and what isn’t?

9) What you need is mostly based on how you are going to use the plane.  If you are interested in flying long cross countries... many people get their instrument rating...  this opens the topic of how many radios and GPS people use...

10) Then there is the CB club... these fine gentlemen have found a way to get everything they need, yet not pay full price.  Are you a member of the CB club...?  

11) how did you come upon your plane? Did you know the prior owner? Is he an MSer?

Hang out, relax, read a lot of MS.  Use the search function, often.  Ask a lot of questions...

Best regards,

-a-

[Danb]

7 hours ago, smccray said:

I transitioned from a 172 @ ~80 hours to my current J.  It's a transition, but it's doable.  I still remember my first flight- I was WAY behind the airplane.  She'll take a lot longer to slow down than you're used to, but you will get used to it.  Pull the power back long before you actually need to- she'll take a couple miles to slow down to gear speed in level flight.

Enjoy it- you're going to have a great time!

Scott I remember mine well also, I trained in a warrior my first landing in the J cost me a new tire, learned quickly about planes with real brakes.

[1964-M20E]

When I got my E model in 2010 I had about 150 hours or so total time, about 7 hours in an arrow in the preceding 12 months and 15 hours in 150s and 172s in the previous 5 months I had stopped flying for about 15 years prior to that.  I think the insurance company just said get with an instructor maybe 2 or 3 hours required but I did have the Arrow time which is a similar airplane.

I didn't find the transition that hard but I did have an older unmodified E model that slowed easily.  Once I was cleared by the instructor I flew about once a week for the next year even if it was just going up for an hour by myself and I would start flying procedures VFR looking out the window at uncontrolled airstrips getting ready to start my IR training.  This allowed me to get a good reference as to where I was visually with respect to the procedure and to start learning the terminology on the procedures.

[LANCECASPER]

12 hours ago, sdflysurf said:

1) About how many hours with my instructor should I anticipate to get my complex endorsement and feel comfortable in this type/model? (I know my mileage may vary but just wondering).

You might be comfortable with your instructor, but if you are in San Diego, get with Paul Kortopates, Mooney owner for years, A & P, instructor. You will get Mooney insight that a generic instructor doesn't have.

[kris_adams]

I transitioned out of an AA1B to my J.  I had ~400 hours at the time with complex, multi-engine, high performance (all 20+ years earlier).  All insurance required was a CFI signoff and a BFR (I hadn't flown for 6 years since the AA1B).  I found the hardest part of the transition to be figuring out how to understand and utilize a JPI for engine mgt.  I was use to the lean until it stumbles and then richen it a bit approach.  Good luck and congrats!  Any pics??

[kris_adams]

3 minutes ago, LANCECASPER said:

You might be comfortable with your instructor, but if you are in San Diego, get with Paul Kortopates, Mooney owner for years, A & P, instructor. You will get Mooney insight that a generic instructor doesn't have.

This is true.  My original transition CFI owned an Arrow and tried to get me to fly 79H like an (early) arrow.  It just didn't work.

[skydvrboy]

Congrats on your new plane AND your PPL!!!

I'm one of the new Mooney owners that was mentioned and I too got an F model.  Like you, I had around 100 hrs and zero retract time.  My insurance requirement was 10 dual & 10 solo before passengers.  Some tips:

Fly frequently, especially during your transition training, so you don't lose sight of things you learned in your last lesson.  Fly a lot, most of your costs are fixed and your variable (per hour) costs are quite low.  Every hour you fly the plane is cheaper than the last.

I was comfortable flying the plane in about 6 hours, but my instructor tells me I'm the fastest learner he has ever taught (who knows, maybe he tells everyone that).  Read your POH a couple times, read on MS about various power configurations (climb, cruise, descent), and when the two conflict, follow the advice of the MS'ers or your instructor.  Chair fly a lot. 

And last, learn to do the simple calculations in your head.  Example:  If you are cruising at 10,500 and need to descend to TPA at 2,000, how far out should you start your descent.  500 fpm = 17 min.  17 min at 180 mph = 51 miles.  So,  start your descents EARLY!

[sdflysurf]

Thanks all for the replies!  I am at KCRQ Carlsbad.  I plan to get my IFR ticket in this and fly the wife (or a few kids) up the coast every now and then.

It is a 68 M20F, it has electric retractable gear and some Lasar speed mods, looks like the flaps are manual.  I downloaded the POH and read it through.  I started watching all the Youtube videos I could find of guys landing M20 models to get the feel for it....much less of a "flare" more of a transition from driving down to the runway to straight and level flight / bleed some more speed and letting it sit down on the runway from what I see....any back pressure on the yoke during that settling down seems to call for the stall warning in the videos I've seen.  I will go ahead and look up that guy in San Diego for some Mooney Specific Transition Training.  It is a fixer upper and I will post pictures during the fixing up, but I haven't finalized the transaction yet so I'll only show the panel for advice on avionics so far (attached).

First step is to clean it up and get it Airworthy again (hasn't been registered for a little while - but I have a very experienced A&P working with me, we need to get the engine started after a little sitting around, replace the Battery/Elt/Tires, hoses, etc) then replace the Windshield, fix some paint issues, start flying it around with an instructor and then focus on some new radios/avionics.

[Marauder]

Thanks all for the replies!  I am at KCRQ Carlsbad.  I plan to get my IFR ticket in this and fly the wife (or a few kids) up the coast every now and then.
It is a 68 M20F, it has electric retractable gear and some Lasar speed mods, looks like the flaps are manual.  I downloaded the POH and read it through.  I started watching all the Youtube videos I could find of guys landing M20 models to get the feel for it....much less of a "flare" more of a transition from driving down to the runway to straight and level flight / bleed some more speed and letting it sit down on the runway from what I see....any back pressure on the yoke during that settling down seems to call for the stall warning in the videos I've seen.  I will go ahead and look up that guy in San Diego for some Mooney Specific Transition Training.  It is a fixer upper and I will post pictures during the fixing up, but I haven't finalized the transaction yet so I'll only show the panel for advice on avionics so far (attached).
First step is to clean it up and get it Airworthy again (hasn't been registered for a little while - but I have a very experienced A&P working with me, we need to get the engine started after a little sitting around, replace the Battery/Elt/Tires, hoses, etc) then replace the Windshield, fix some paint issues, start flying it around with an instructor and then focus on some new radios/avionics.

Considering the plane’s history, I would make sure the engine is mechanically sound. These Lycomings are known to have cam issues if they sit a while. Hopefully you aren’t dealing with that issue.

As for the avionics, your panel brings back memories. I had a set of KX-170Bs, ADF and few other relics that over time I replaced. When you get ready to do the avionics, I would concentrate on those items needed for IFR and replace/repair to get through the rating. Not familiar where you are based at but it sounds like you will need to address the ASD-B mandate before 2020 as well.


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[donkaye]

15 hours ago, sdflysurf said:

Hello all!  New to the forum, just got my PPL recently and I have 120 hours total time in cessna 152 and 172 airplanes.  I just bought a Mooney M20F and I had a few questions for the forum:

1) About how many hours with my instructor should I anticipate to get my complex endorsement and feel comfortable in this type/model? (I know my mileage may vary but just wondering).

 

From my experience (6,000+ hours teaching mostly Mooneys) it should take between 8 and 15 hours depending on how quickly you can recognize slope and manage your airspeed.  With the Mooney, between 20 and 30 landings--minimum.

[Skates97]

1 hour ago, donkaye said:

From my experience (6,000+ hours teaching mostly Mooneys) it should take between 8 and 15 hours depending on how quickly you can recognize slope and manage your airspeed.  With the Mooney, between 20 and 30 landings--minimum.

I was a 58 hour PPL with no complex time when I got my Mooney. Insurance required 10 dual and 5 solo before flying passengers. My CFI signed my complex after our first flight in the Mooney. By about 8 hours I was comfortable in the plane so at 10 hours I felt good going up in it myself. By the time I finished the dual and the 5 solo I was at 25 landings and feeling okay about them although I am still learning after 170 hours and 181 landings in the Mooney. Just last Saturday I had one "ok" landing and one "nice" landing.

[RobertGary1]

The F is a great plane. It only came with the IO-360. The O-360 (180hp) engine was in the C and G models.

Personally I advise new owners to hold off on upgrades to the panel for the first 12 months. There can be lots of unexpected maintenance item on a 40 year old vehicle and you don't want to dig yourself into a hole too soon.

Also, if the engine has been sitting awhile, it may still be fine but I'd definitely want to pull a cylinder and look around. 

-Robert

Edited April 24, 2018 by RobertGary1

[TTaylor]

4 minutes ago, RobertGary1 said:

The F is a great plane. It only came with the IO-360. The O-360 (180hp) engine was in the C and G models.

Personally I advise new owners to hold off on upgrades to the panel for the first 12 months. There can be lots of unexpected maintenance item on a 40 year old vehicle and you don't want to dig yourself into a hole too soon.

Also, if the engine has been sitting awhile, it may still be fine but I'd definitely want to pull a cylinder and look around. 

-Robert

I agree with Robert on the holding off on panel upgrades at first.  Work through everything else and make it a solid VFR plane, then decide how to upgrade.  If it has not been flying there will be many things to do. Gear doughnuts, vacuum pumps, etc. tend to suffer from sitting. 

The great thing is good avionics are cheap as long as you don't install them in the panel.  Get a good GPS/ADS-B in source and invest in a good tablet or two and a software package you are willing to learn.  You can have a very good VFR system for under $1000 (less than $400 if you are a real CB ).    From low end such as Stratux with AVARE on an Android tablet (can be done for under $300) to a Garmin GDL 39 and ForeFlight on an iPad. 

Save the money from not doing the fancy panel right now and plan for the ADS-B upgrade and flying the plane. After a few hundred hours you  will know where you want to go with the panel upgrade. By then you can drool over Marauder's panel and feel panel envy .                  

[thinwing]

Good advice to complete repurchase/ annual inspection on a plane that has been sitting...how long out of annual?

[Bryan]

I was a 100hr PPL when I bought my first '67 Mooney M20F with nothing more than an old COMM and VFR/Handheld GPS.  I then moved up to a 231 and got my IFR  - and then one more step to a 252 Encore.  I think you'll have less issue with the complex training but I would recommend (as everyone else has) get a Mooney specific instructor to knock out both.  They are no harder than other planes but you'd save yourself a ton of hours learning if you will learn from a Mooney instructor first.

[Hank]

I bought my C model with 62 hours in my logbook [all 172 time], five weeks after my checkride. Insurance was stupid expensive the first year, and the ins. co. required 15 hours dual including 5 hrs. actual / simulated IMC with their recommended instructor [local to me, in fact the seller]. Flew her 100 hours that year, rates fell 50% the next year. Third year the same, then 30% reduction with Instrument Rating. When I moved south, I changed from a local broker to Falcon and saved another 20%. I recommend starting with Falcon . . .

For a new, low time owner, I highly recommend joining MAPA [Mooney Aircraft Pilots Assn, www.mooneypilots.com] and attending one of their weekend PPPs [the Pilot Proficiency Program travels around the country several times each year]. Mine was a month after I completed my required dual, and I was pretty comfortable with the plane. My reasoning was that I had learned to fly the plane, the MAPA group would teach me how to fly it right. Doing so soon kept me from learning too many bad habits. A trip back every few years is a chance to eliminate bad habits that have crept in, too.

Congrats on picking a good plane. Hope the return to flight goes smoothly, and that you are up and flying soon.

[Marauder]

I agree with Robert on the holding off on panel upgrades at first.  Work through everything else and make it a solid VFR plane, then decide how to upgrade.  If it has not been flying there will be many things to do. Gear doughnuts, vacuum pumps, etc. tend to suffer from sitting. 
The great thing is good avionics are cheap as long as you don't install them in the panel.  Get a good GPS/ADS-B in source and invest in a good tablet or two and a software package you are willing to learn.  You can have a very good VFR system for under $1000 (less than $400 if you are a real CB ).    From low end such as Stratux with AVARE on an Android tablet (can be done for under $300) to a Garmin GDL 39 and ForeFlight on an iPad. 
Save the money from not doing the fancy panel right now and plan for the ADS-B upgrade and flying the plane. After a few hundred hours you  will know where you want to go with the panel upgrade. By then you can drool over Marauder's panel and feel panel envy .                  

I absolutely agree that you should hold off upgrading until you have some time with the plane. But as someone who has learned that the hard way, spending good money on bad problems isn’t always the smartest way to proceed. I have nursed along (read spent money) to keep marginal equipment working. The main thing you want to avoid is going upside down unless you know the investment is being made in a plane you will use for a period of time and get functional usage of your investment. In other words, upgrade if you have a need to. An example, I would not fixed your ADF if it was busted. I would remove it. The KX-170B can be repaired but if your KX-155 is marginal in the least, one of them either needs to be fixed or replaced.

And oh, I just went in to have a GPS installed. Don’t let this happen to you!




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[Andy95W]

2 hours ago, Skates97 said:

 although I am still learning after 170 hours and 181 landings in the Mooney. Just last Saturday I had one "ok" landing and one "nice" landing.

You're doing great.  I've got 18 years of Mooney ownership and about 1,000 Mooney hours- and my last landing was crap.

95W is still glaring at me in spite.

[DonMuncy]

3 hours ago, Skates97 said:

..... Just last Saturday I had one "ok" landing and one "nice" landing.

I've had days like that too. And it only took me ten landings to get those two.  

[smccray]

4 hours ago, donkaye said:

From my experience (6,000+ hours teaching mostly Mooneys) it should take between 8 and 15 hours depending on how quickly you can recognize slope and manage your airspeed.  With the Mooney, between 20 and 30 landings--minimum.

It probably took me 12-13 to get comfortable.  Insurance required 15 dual and 10 solo before passengers.  It took that much time to get comfortable.

Then it took another year of flying before I had anything resembling consistency with landing the airplane.  I bounced one badly with my wife in the plane and my father in law in the FBO.  Her second flight with me.  Not proud of that one- went bounce-bounce-get the hell out of there...  at least she didn't crunch!!!  None of us are immune.