Flying passengers and a commercial Pilot with my own mooney

[yankele]

You basically need three certificates/authorizations. The pilot has to have a commercial certificate and a class 2 at least. That means the pilot can fly for money. But then you need to have an operators certificate for the organization (you) that hires the pilot and keeps the plane, and that is not simple. As mentioned, you would need to get commercial insurance, I don't know what that is for aviation but usually it is at least ten times more than private insurance in other insurance areas, i.e. you private insurance might be 2,400 and your commercial would be 24,000.  The ins. co. will have maintenance and other requirements for you to meet that are separate from the FAA requirements.  And of course the aircraft must be equipped and maintained to commercial standards (i.e. 100 hour inspections, TBO is mandatory, etc. etc.) and operated by the commercial operator. So there you go, have fun with the hoop jumping.

Big difference there.

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[yankele]

How’s the sightseeing flight work as a business model? 

Within 50 NM its legal and you could advertise.

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[yankele]

When it comes to charging customers, not only would you be subjected to additional requirements, so would your plane. 100 hour inspections, complying with service bulletins, FAA inspections and who knows what else might be required. And those costs would be occurred whether you have a paying passenger or not.
Also reach out to Seth Meyers on this site. He was entertaining setting up some sort of shuttle service into the Washington D.C. area. Think he has a good understanding of the situation.

Thanks man!

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[yankele]

There is a kind of a way.  It is actually how a fair amount of corporate flight departments operate Part 91.  You would want to be well versed to pull this off.
Let's say your friend owns a plane.   He can "hire" you to fly his plane with your commercial certificate. But he would most likely not be able to charge other passengers to fly on his plane.
Rules are so wacky that I won't give rides to fellow work people when we are going to the same meeting.  If there is any sort of reimbursement then it would be like I am transporting them for my employer.
Once you own a plane you realize that you want to be very good friends with the people you fly.    They should trust your skills and you have a duty to keep your skills and equipment sharp to keep them safe. 
Keep the enthusiasm for flying going.
 

Thanks man.

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[steingar]

If you really can't swing airplane ownership without putting a shill out its time to take up something cheaper like knitting.

[KSMooniac]

You won't be able to put 3 passengers in a Mooney and fly them NY to FL without a few stops. They probably want to bring some luggage, too.

Just to add to the chorus, doing what you propose is likely to cost a ton, involve a lot of hassle, and not likely to make you any money at the end of the day if you comply with the rules. There are ways to skirt the rules, but I won't say how... It still leaves you wide open in liability exposure IMO and not worth the risk.

If you want to own a Mooney at a reduced cost, get a partner or set up a club arrangement with up to 4 people. Insurance won't be awful, availability will still be good, and you won't have the hassle of 135 regs. After you get a commercial licence, go find a flying job with some outfit and maybe use a Mooney to commute, if needed.

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[midlifeflyer]

14 hours ago, yankele said:

I was wondering if there is such a thing where I take myself and my plane to a charter company and tell them hey, if you need me to fly anyone anywhere I'm down. 

Oh absolutely. Of course, the charter company would have operational control of your airplane, you'd have to do all the maintenance and other record keeping required of Part 135 operations. And, of course, as the pilot, you'd have to meet Part 135 PIC qualifications, do all the Part 135 recurrent training, etc, etc.

I think you'd find not trying to make money much cheaper

[midlifeflyer]

13 minutes ago, KSMooniac said:

There are ways to skirt the rules, but I won't say how... 
 

How many of those have already resulted in pilot certificate revocations?

How may of the rest of them just involve not getting caught?

[INA201]

42 minutes ago, yankele said:

Within 50 NM its legal and you could advertise.

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You could advertise this to select groups and possibly write off a lot of expenses. You still won’t make money but may get close to free flying for these trips unless you could charge a lot.

[aviatoreb]

34 minutes ago, midlifeflyer said:

How many of those have already resulted in pilot certificate revocations?

How may of the rest of them just involve not getting caught?

Right - if one depends on not getting caught - you don't need a license at all!  Just ask the barefoot bandit.

[Mooneymite]

You've heard of Uber?

Just call yourself UbAir and you can avoid all those pesky regulations...

Plenty of business for everyone...as long as it's sharing.  . 

[midlifeflyer]

7 minutes ago, Mooneymite said:

You've heard of Uber?

Just call yourself UbAir and you can avoid all those pesky regulations...

Plenty of business for everyone...as long as it's sharing.

You've heard of FlyteNow?

legal sharing requires a "common purpose"" other than providing transportation. The Uber model is definitely not that.

[Garryowen]

13 minutes ago, midlifeflyer said:

The Uber model is definitely not that

A very close model to Uber for the sky is Blade. Passengers crowd source a flight and the app links them with a charter aircraft. This lets Blade bypass all those pesky regulations that we keep hearing about. Sketchy at best and definitely in the grey area of the rules.

Unfortunately, there is no quick and easy way to make money in aviation.

[Yetti]

The one other way is get your CFI.  Put your friend in the left seat and then charge them for flight training.  100 hours and insurance requirements still apply.

[yankele]

The one other way is get your CFI.  Put your friend in the left seat and then charge them for flight training.  100 hours and insurance requirements still apply.

Like this idea

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[Andy95W]

1 hour ago, Yetti said:

The one other way is get your CFI.  Put your friend in the left seat and then charge them for flight training.  100 hours and insurance requirements still apply.

The FAA has busted people for this in the 30 years I've been flying.

@yankele - consider going to an airline (or any other flying job) interview and having to explain why you have a violation on your record.  Taking shortcuts is for amateurs.  Commercial pilots are supposed to be professionals.

Any scheme you can think of has already been tried and ultimately shut down- otherwise everyone would still be doing it.

[INA201]

Let’s see....

1.  Airlines don’t seem to make much money and go bankrupt here and there. Ask me how I know. Invested in Continental and watched the stock go all the way up to zero.

2.  Bigger charter services seem to do ok but the smaller ones usually don’t.

3. CFIs spouses usually make money or the CFIs have another job too.

4.  Mechanics don’t make a ton.  Car mechanics have less regs, worse quality, and still make more typically.

5.  I make good money, then spend it all on flying so realistically I don’t make money.

6. The drug runners make a ton of money but somehow end up in jail. I’ve heard that the most fun while flying is being chased while 2x over gross while low on fuel loaded full of some illicit substance while flying(sarcasm).

In conclusion to all of our threads on these subjects is obviously FLYING is worth more than money.  It has to be doesn’t it?

[Seth]

13 hours ago, Marauder said:

When it comes to charging customers, not only would you be subjected to additional requirements, so would your plane. 100 hour inspections, complying with service bulletins, FAA inspections and who knows what else might be required. And those costs would be occurred whether you have a paying passenger or not.

Also reach out to Seth Meyers on this site. He was entertaining setting up some sort of shuttle service into the Washington D.C. area. Think he has a good understanding of the situation.

I heard my name!   I like your enthusiasm. 

As noted by the responses, you are already learning a lot.

There is a TON you have to do and may hoops to jump through to legally make money in the aviation world.  I own my own financial advisory practice and travel often for work using my Mooney and thus, as a part 91 owner/operator, can write off many of the expenses.  That said, for a part 135 charter type situation, you have as noted 100 hour inspections, have to have flight manuals, heck all sorts of manuals and procedures approved by the local FSDO, basically be an approved charter operation, and that's for every type of aircraft you have in your "fleet."  Approved training, maintenance programs, you name it.  It may be best to find a local air taxi service or existing charter operation once you get your commercial license and add your aircraft to their certificate.  Many items on your airplane would have to be brought up to spec/replaced/overhauled to be within the necessary time out limits for a part 135 operation that is not necessary for a part 91 operation.  Unfortunately, passengers also like the cabin more than the cockpit.  Something with a larger cabin may be a better choice for a 135 world than a Mooney.  A Mooney will be more efficient with fuel.

It is doable, but there is a ton to learn.  I'm happy to chat with you anytime.  PM me. 

You'll figure out in time I want to do a lot of what's possible in aviation, just need to figure out funding and time restraints to do it all.  I'm married (just celebrated four years) and my second child just turned 1.  Sleep?  What's sleep.  Somehow I flew over 100 hours last year (not on pace for that this year, but things will pick up).

I want to:

1.  Create an all you can fly service for the Greater Washington DC area due to traffic and geographic constraints at a flat rate per month (subscription) - think old netflix DVD model but for seats on small aircraft.  I already have the name and own the website but its not developed yet, and the business is still an idea.

2.  Fly for an air taxi service (nearly there) - This will be on Cirrus aircraft www.openair.com and get experince flying small GA aircraft for hire in and around the mid atlantic and DC.

3.  Maybe get some training and fly for a regional at some point with the current pilot shortage in the first officer space and retiring pilots in the next 10-15 years, now is actually the time to get that done (nights away from home with two small kids and a supportive wife is the hard part).  I've nearly got the hours and some of the regionals have DCA and IAD as domiciles, allowing me a potential QOL that could work.  This is not likely but possible.

4.  Put together a part 91 operation owned by 1-4 companies where they own the aircraft but I manage and supply pilots for them (including myself once properly trained, and as part of it get use of such aircraft for x hours per year - a King Air 90 up to a single pilot Jet, maybe a CJ2 or even a C501SP for example.  A few of these are based at my airport.  One just upgraded from a Cessna 414 to a King Air E90 and one has a B200 with upgraded engines.  The B200 is ALWAYS flying - split between 5 wealthy families on the east coast.  

5.  Get some heavy tail wheel and warbird experience

6.  Build a home on a ton of acreage with an appalachian or blue ridge view with a runway on property

6.  Run my holistic financial advisory practice all at the same time

7.  Assist developing Mooney Summit into an even greater organization (you should attend)

 

How do you make a small fortune in aviation?   Start with a large fortune!

 

I have the aviation bug, it seems you do too.

 

There's a guy that purchased a TBM 850 and is on YouTube who flies charter flights.  

 

PM me anytime.

-Seth

 

 

 

 

 

Edited April 18, 2018 by Seth

[Seth]

5 hours ago, INA201 said:

You could advertise this to select groups and possibly write off a lot of expenses. You still won’t make money but may get close to free flying for these trips unless you could charge a lot.

Or at least heavily subsidized.  Many flight schools do a groupon - I'm sure you could too.

-Seth

[Andy95W]

Andrew-

It depends on the type of operation.  Since the Cessna Caravan is a single pilot aircraft, you wouldn't be doing work, per se, so compensation wouldn't be a factor.

Our FAA has determined, in the past, that flight time itself is compensation.  Therefore, if you were logging the flight time you would be in violation as a private pilot.

[midlifeflyer]

11 hours ago, Garryowen said:

A very close model to Uber for the sky is Blade. Passengers crowd source a flight and the app links them with a charter aircraft. This lets Blade bypass all those pesky regulations that we keep hearing about. Sketchy at best and definitely in the grey area of the rules.

Unfortunately, there is no quick and easy way to make money in aviation.

I took a look. As far as I can tell, Blade is an "air charter broker'" an unlicensed party which acts as a customer agent in locating flights, or an "indirect air carrier," a DOT licensed party which acts as an agent for airlines.

In either case, it is arranging lights.  The flights themselves are fully regulated Part 135..

Edited April 18, 2018 by midlifeflyer

[midlifeflyer]

9 hours ago, Andy95W said:

The FAA has busted people for this in the 30 years I've been flying.

@yankele - consider going to an airline (or any other flying job) interview and having to explain why you have a violation on your record.  Taking shortcuts is for amateurs.  Commercial pilots are supposed to be professionals.

Any scheme you can think of has already been tried and ultimately shut down- otherwise everyone would still be doing it.

...and the rules are loose enough to cover just about any others clever people come up with.

[chrisk]

14 hours ago, Yetti said:

The one other way is get your CFI.  Put your friend in the left seat and then charge them for flight training.  100 hours and insurance requirements still apply.

I was under the impression that Cirrus has such an operation.  They sell a plane, and then provide a pilot (CFI) to fly the new owner around.  --But of course the big difference is the pilot is not the owner.

[mike_elliott]

14 hours ago, yankele said:

Like this idea

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Expect to pay upwards of 10K or more for insurance on a C model used for training, expect to spend about 20K or more to get your Commercial, Instrument and CFI tix, Oh, and dont put anything in your name or own any assets. You will then be on your way to making about what a paper boy makes only in aviation. 

[Mooneymite]

Be very careful.  The FAA measures "commercial" with a micrometer.

My brother, as a favor, flew a stranded airplane back to a local flight school. Enroute the engine failed.  He successfully landed in a farmer's field. When the FAA found out about it, they charged him with flying a commercial operation. My brother pointed out that he received no compensation and it was done as a favor. The FAA said BS.  It maintained that the flight time was compensation and proceeded to make his life miserable for about 6 months.