Experimental Avionics in Certified Aircraft

[Brandontwalker]

Serious question here, so no bashing.  I have a close friend who purchased an experimental Stratus ESGi transponder and had it installed in his Piper Cherokee 180.  His local FSDO then inspected the installation and signed it off for a minimal fee.  Is this common?  If so, is this practice allowed with other avionics such as an experimental G5?  I plan to install dual G5's at annual and, in addition to the money savings, wouldn't mind having the increased functionality that comes with the experimental units.

[MB65E]

Minimal Fee!?!?! 

Sounds like a drug deal to me!!

-Matt

 

[Browncbr1]

Pay to play!   Haha.  Some fsdos are more reasonable than others.  

[jaylw314]

5 hours ago, Brandontwalker said:

Serious question here, so no bashing.  I have a close friend who purchased an experimental Stratus ESGi transponder and had it installed in his Piper Cherokee 180.  His local FSDO then inspected the installation and signed it off for a minimal fee.  Is this common?  If so, is this practice allowed with other avionics such as an experimental G5?  I plan to install dual G5's at annual and, in addition to the money savings, wouldn't mind having the increased functionality that comes with the experimental units.

AFAIK, possible?  Yes.  Common?  No

[bradp]

A similar topic just was posted over on beechtalk and someone confirmed that the G5 part number is the same for experimental and STCd versions of the box - the difference appears to be in the software versioning.  Since, it was deduced, the STC covers both PFD and HSI installation you could presumably purchase one STCd PFD, one experimental PFD and the G11 and GAD29b accoutrements, and still be legal under the letter, but probably not the spirit, of the STC.  I'm not suggesting this be done, just saying that it's out there. 

[Cruiser]

Jay

The FAA has made special allowances for the installation of ADS-B OUT equipment.

see AFS-360-2017-1 for details.

Essentially it allows the installation of APPROVED ads-b boxes in airplanes that are not on the AML 

IT DOES NOT apply to other avionics equipment.

[Cruiser]

I don't know the differences in software but I question how Garmin would ship TSO'd and non-TSO'd units under the same part number.

[aviatoreb]

...since they look the same, but they are much cheaper - I wouldn't be surprised if a few non certified G5 units sneak into some certified airplanes which would be difficult to ever find in a ramp check.  Only postmortem after a crash would the nefarious avionics become discovered.

[jamesm]

Not certain about Stratus... Honestly  I don't understand how all the other  ADS-B manufactures  (that I have seen) have to mount external GPS Antenna for  position source  for the ADS-B units  but Stratus seems get by with no external antenna . I don't get it.  Because All the FAA seminars I went to  the FAA  said under no circumstance will there will be a portable solution for ADS out.  Yet Stratus seems have come up with a sudo GPS portable solution. I supposed I depends on  which FSDO's you are under. 

But I recall seeing several statements on the Garmin  Web site and G5 Install manual  that it needs to be STC version of the G5 for certified  aircraft. Also  it could be a problem in future in software compatibility. I bit the bullet an installed  two of the  STC version of the G5's (ADI,HSI). Secondly I don't any trouble from the FAA about relatively small price to pay. I am glad to remove all my vacuum gyro instruments.   There maybe someone out there willing  to  install the experimental version of the G5 in a certified  aircraft.  But I think it would be  a tough sell to get someone  to sign it off.  Especially when many people are having the   STC G5  version  installed in certified airplanes which tends set a precedence.

Edited March 21, 2018 by jamesm

[jonhop]

1 hour ago, aviatoreb said:

...since they look the same, but they are much cheaper - I wouldn't be surprised if a few non certified G5 units sneak into some certified airplanes which would be difficult to ever find in a ramp check.  Only postmortem after a crash would the nefarious avionics become discovered.

Wouldn't it be easy to check for during a ramp check? I thought the STC paperwork had to become a part of the POH/AFM...

[aviatoreb]

29 minutes ago, jonhop said:

Wouldn't it be easy to check for during a ramp check? I thought the STC paperwork had to become a part of the POH/AFM...

I suppose you are right.  Let me just say not by peeking in the window as it would say if I had a g3x installed.  I bet there will be some cheaters.

[jaylw314]

5 hours ago, Cruiser said:

Jay

The FAA has made special allowances for the installation of ADS-B OUT equipment.

see AFS-360-2017-1 for details.

Essentially it allows the installation of APPROVED ads-b boxes in airplanes that are not on the AML 

IT DOES NOT apply to other avionics equipment.

Ah.  I was not familiar with the Stratus ESGi, I assumed it was for experimental aircraft only based on the OP's post.  I see it's actually an approved transponder with an AML and STC for some aircraft, in which case you are very correct, it can be done and the FAA has made a point of facilitating it.  Never mind me!

Edited March 21, 2018 by jaylw314

[Brandontwalker]

Not certain about Stratus... Honestly  I don't understand how all the other  ADS-B manufactures  (that I have seen) have to mount external GPS Antenna for  position source  for the ADS-B units  but Stratus seems get by with no external antenna . I don't get it.  Because All the FAA seminars I went to  the FAA  said under no circumstance will there will be a portable solution for ADS out.  Yet Stratus seems have come up with a sudo GPS portable solution. I supposed I depends on  which FSDO's you are under. 
But I recall seeing several statements on the Garmin  Web site and G5 Install manual  that it needs to be STC version of the G5 for certified  aircraft. Also  it could be a problem in future in software compatibility. I bit the bullet an installed  two of the  STC version of the G5's (ADI,HSI). Secondly I don't any trouble from the FAA about relatively small price to pay. I am glad to remove all my vacuum gyro instruments.   There maybe someone out there willing  to  install the experimental version of the G5 in a certified  aircraft.  But I think it would be  a tough sell to get someone  to sign it off.  Especially when many people are having the   STC G5  version  installed in certified airplanes which tends set a precedence.

The Stratus ESGi is a panel mounted transponder with external antenna. I have one in my Mooney. Tt


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[Stanton R]

The minimum advertised price for the   experimental version of the ESGi is only $200 less. I'm not sure what the small fee was from the FAA but $200 doesn't seem like to much to pay to not have to worry about the FAA.

[jamesm]

So when  you say "external antenna" do you mean the GPS antenna for ADS position source  is mounted on Aircraft Skin?  or  puck antenna on the  glare shield or ?? 

Some of the  literature  that I saw didn't seem to indicate where GPS Antenna located.

Thanks

[ELT]

Some confusion exists about the Stratus transponder models for certificated aircraft.  There are 2 models. (1)The ESi model which uses the position input from a certified waas navigator thus needs no other gps antenna.  (2)The ESGi model has a built in gps and comes with an antenna for external mounting.  All must use an antenna mounted externally for gps.

[Brandontwalker]

The minimum advertised price for the   experimental version of the ESGi is only $200 less. I'm not sure what the small fee was from the FAA but $200 doesn't seem like to much to pay to not have to worry about the FAA.

He got his for roughly half the cost of a certified model.


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[xcrmckenna]

I don't know the differences in software but I question how Garmin would ship TSO'd and non-TSO'd units under the same part number.

When they shipped my G5 to me there is an envelope in the box with code and a website to register my unit for the stc. I’m only guessing the experimental unit doesn’t come with the


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[tony]

I think after 2020 the mandate requires the equipment be installed as part of an STC or TC from the OEM.  This installation, if legal now, wont be legal after 2020 without an STC.  Without a DER signing off the design today, approving the engineering, I question the legality of it.  

[bob865]

On 3/20/2018 at 6:45 PM, bradp said:

A similar topic just was posted over on beechtalk and someone confirmed that the G5 part number is the same for experimental and STCd versions of the box - the difference appears to be in the software versioning.  Since, it was deduced, the STC covers both PFD and HSI installation you could presumably purchase one STCd PFD, one experimental PFD and the G11 and GAD29b accoutrements, and still be legal under the letter, but probably not the spirit, of the STC.  I'm not suggesting this be done, just saying that it's out there. 

I don't think that will work.  With a dual G5 install the units communicate between each other and will fault for having different software versions.  I guess if you install them both independently then it's possible, but i'm not sure in the end you would end up saving anything after you have to wire two units independently with 2 GPS sources etc.

Just my thoughts.

[bradp]

Just my thoughts as well, but the software versioning is easily and readily updatable between the units.  I can load experimental software or certified software.  I'll let you know if the canbus architecture requires versioning. 

I'm not saying this is the thing to do (I have two STCd G5s right now, one waiting to go in).  The point is that the box is the box.  The price differences come from the paperwork that goes with the box. 

[LANCECASPER]

17 hours ago, jamesm said:

So when  you say "external antenna" do you mean the GPS antenna for ADS position source  is mounted on Aircraft Skin?  or  puck antenna on the  glare shield or ?? 

Some of the  literature  that I saw didn't seem to indicate where GPS Antenna located.

Thanks

Regarding the Stratus ESG, the GPS antenna for ADS  position source  is mounted on Aircraft Skin.

[Browncbr1]

I know that in the setup menu, one of the options that can be selected is either certified or un-certified installation.  To flip the between the two, you just boot up into setup mode, change, then reboot.   It seems to me that the only difference is the paperwork. 

[flyboy0681]

Any idea if or when the certified G5 AI will interface to King autopilots?

[bradp]

It does.  It just can’t  replace an attitude based autopilot’s attitude indicator (my century iiB lives where my TC used to be) and double that for an attitude indicator based autopilot with a flight director you both need to retain the attitude indicator and keep the flight director front and center. 

The HSI g5 setup simply gives a GPSS replacement HSI with a 4 hr battery backup AI and about 15# of useful kid back to you in three tiny little boxes.