Basic med problem

[Oldguy]

2 minutes ago, kerry said:

I believe Dental School is more competitive than Medical School.  Reasons are Obama care and lifestyle. 

As we said at TAMU, don't worry if you didn't get into vet school, you can always get into med school.

[flyboy0681]

20 hours ago, kerry said:

I believe Dental School is more competitive than Medical School.  Reasons are Obama care and lifestyle. 

You would have a very difficult time convincing me that. Medicine and dentistry are two entirely different disciplines and a person who worked their entire academic life towards medical school is not going to say "hey, this Obamacare thing is crap, and instead of clearing arteries I'm going to clean teeth". That's akin to a flight instructor working towards building his time and saying "hey, I don't like having to deal with TSA at the airport, instead of working my way towards flying 787's, I'm going to set my sights on flying freight in a Cessna Caravan as my life's goal".

[Hank]

1 minute ago, flyboy0681 said:

You would have a very difficult time convincing me that. Medicine and dentistry are two entirely different disciplines and a person who worked their entire academic life towards medical school is not going to say "hey, this Obamacare thing is crap, and instead of clearing arteries I'm going to clean teeth". That's akin to a flight instructor working towards building his time and saying "hey, I don't like having to deal with TSA at the airport, instead of working my way towards flying 787's, I'm going to set my sights on flying freight in a Cessna Caravan as my life's goal".

Do you know many Caravan freight pilots, or doctors, who work the typical dentist's 4-day week? Some dentists manage to work 3½ days . . . . Most doctors that I know work longer hours than I do as a manufacturing engineer, have trouble taking vacation for more than a couple of days, are on call a lot and make rounds in the hospital every morning before the patients are served breakfast [while still working until 5:00 or later].

[jaylw314]

3 hours ago, Hank said:

Do you know many Caravan freight pilots, or doctors, who work the typical dentist's 4-day week? Some dentists manage to work 3½ days . . . . Most doctors that I know work longer hours than I do as a manufacturing engineer, have trouble taking vacation for more than a couple of days, are on call a lot and make rounds in the hospital every morning before the patients are served breakfast [while still working until 5:00 or later].

And like many professional pilots, many doctors I know don't do the work that they do to make as much money as possible.  It's the ones that do that complain of cost stewardship, patient safety, having to respect people's preferences and having to treat other people with dignity, and all the other "complications" that are required because of policies from the federal government from the mid '80's all the way through Obamacare.  If those people go become dentists, God help all our teeth (and our teeth's wallet).

Professionally, I have no problem with policies that require people get better health care and force doctors to work better, especially if it weeds out the doctors who are in it for the wrong reasons.  Hell, if I thought making as much money as possible was my goal in life, there would have been a whole bunch of other careers I could have gone into.  And no, flying wouldn't have been one of them, either!

Sorry, off-topic rant over.

[kerry]

2 hours ago, flyboy0681 said:

You would have a very difficult time convincing me that. Medicine and dentistry are two entirely different disciplines and a person who worked their entire academic life towards medical school is not going to say "hey, this Obamacare thing is crap, and instead of clearing arteries I'm going to clean teeth". That's akin to a flight instructor working towards building his time and saying "hey, I don't like having to deal with TSA at the airport, instead of working my way towards flying 787's, I'm going to set my sights on flying freight in a Cessna Caravan as my life's goal".

Premed and Predent  requirements are identical.  Medical school enrollment is down. Dental school enrollment is up.  A OBGYN can spend up to $200,000 in liability insurance in some states.  A dentist pays $3000, Maybe $10,000 as an oral surgeon. That's not counting the rest of the crap Physicians have to go through with poor insurance payer plans.  Forget the medical coding.  It's a joke.  Financially it's just not worth it to become a Physician.  I admire kids today that want to go the medical  school route but that's not the trend young people are going.  Best of all Dentist out number Physicians 3-1 as general aviation pilots.

[flyboy0681]

21 hours ago, kerry said:

Premed and Predent  requirements are identical.  Medical school enrollment is down. Dental school enrollment is up.  A OBGYN can spend up to $200,000 in liability insurance in some states.  A dentist pays $3000, Maybe $10,000 as an oral surgeon. That's not counting the rest of the crap Physicians have to go through with poor insurance payer plans.  Forget the medical coding.  It's a joke.  Financially it's just not worth it to become a Physician.  I admire kids today that want to go the medical  school route but that's not the trend young people are going.  Best of all Dentist out number Physicians 3-1 as general aviation pilots.

An article I just read in the January 3, 2017 edition of US News & World Reports states that applications are up and the competition to get into medical schools is stiff. In fact, 2015 saw a 6% increase in applications, which was year four of Obamacare. Additionally, woman now outnumber men in admissions.

[N601RX]

Do the financials of Med school still make sense vs a good paying 4 year degree? I looked at this very seriously many years ago and to me it did not when considering then student loan debt and the years of missing salary. 

[jaylw314]

40 minutes ago, N601RX said:

Do the financials of Med school still make sense vs a good paying 4 year degree? I looked at this very seriously many years ago and to me it did not when considering then student loan debt and the years of missing salary. 

The financials of medical school make far more sense than just paying for a 4 year degree.  If you think about it, it is a vocational program with an apprenticeship system afterwards that gives you a pretty much a guarantee of some kind of job.  On the other hand, there are plenty of other careers that will give you better ROI on your time (8+ years of school, 4-12 years of residency) and money ($400-600k tuition, $250-500k in lost wages).   Those are ballpark estimates, BTW

Paying for a 4 year degree alone is kind of like flying--it makes no financial sense ($150-300k tuition, $100-150k lost wages, and few marketable job skills), you should only do it if it is something you really love and have the opportunity to do.

[jaylw314]

3 hours ago, flyboy0681 said:

An article I just read in the January 3, 2017 edition of US News & World Reports states that applications are up and the competition to get into medical schools is stiff. In fact, 2015 saw a 6% increase in applications, which was year four of Obamacare. Additionally, woman now outnumber men in admissions.

My impression (working with schools, not looking at statistics, so little better than a WAG on my part) is that the increase in competition in the past 10 years is mostly related to the big pool of women now applying, less so with minorities, and little to do with foreign students (I might even guess there are fewer foreign applicants taken these days).  

 

[MyNameIsNobody]

Basic Med was a good solution for me.  Less expensive and better care.  My annual physical is “free” through my health insurance.  I get the council of “my” doctor on my health vs. paying for a flight physical every two years.  I get the glaucoma and better vision evaluation vs. a simple “eye test”.  Really happy with how basic med worked for me.  

[flyboy0681]

1 minute ago, MyNameIsNobody said:

My annual physical is “free” through my health insurance.  

Thank you Obama    (wink wink)

[jetdriven]

On 6/9/2018 at 9:34 PM, jaylw314 said:

The financials of medical school make far more sense than just paying for a 4 year degree.  If you think about it, it is a vocational program with an apprenticeship system afterwards that gives you a pretty much a guarantee of some kind of job.  On the other hand, there are plenty of other careers that will give you better ROI on your time (8+ years of school, 4-12 years of residency) and money ($400-600k tuition, $250-500k in lost wages).   Those are ballpark estimates, BTW

Paying for a 4 year degree alone is kind of like flying--it makes no financial sense ($150-300k tuition, $100-150k lost wages, and few marketable job skills), you should only do it if it is something you really love and have the opportunity to do.

It makes plenty of sense when the Hospital that hires your kid fresh out of med school, pays the student loans for him after 3yr.  The others, make income-based repayments for a number of years, then the loan is forgiven with the entire balance.  And dont forget career earnings, millions. And 300-400K in student debt is nothing compared to that. A NYU degree in women's studies? No economics there.

[jaylw314]

20 minutes ago, jetdriven said:

It makes plenty of sense when the Hospital that hires your kid fresh out of med school, pays the student loans for him after 3yr.  The others, make income-based repayments for a number of years, then the loan is forgiven with the entire balance.  And dont forget career earnings, millions. And 300-400K in student debt is nothing compared to that. A NYU degree in women's studies? No economics there.

The only systems I know of that repay medical school costs for work are active duty military service.  There is a federal program that repays student loans if you work in a rural or underserved area after residency for long enough (I think 5 years?), too.  But the idea of work-based loan repayment is not common.

[MooneyMitch]

On 6/5/2018 at 11:04 AM, L. Trotter said:

Your observation and experience are unfortunate and not unique. I am a physician well versed in this area. I've done all the AME stuff except take the required 1 week course in Oklahoma (Ive been signed up twice-some work thing always gets in the way). This is what I believe to be happening:

-AME's are FAA consultants and are acting as such. They are NOT practicing physicians when performing their "duty" for the FAA. Legally, as a consultant they have no need to carry malpractice insurance as they only recommend whether you qualify for a certain flight medical or not. 

-Basic Med does have a negative financial impact on AME's (less exams being given). They no longer have a monopoly on flight physicals.  I have a 20 year history with an AME Colleague who wont even answer a simple AME question for me. An overt and blatant act to not support Basic Med-sad.

-AME's are telling other non-AME physicians they are a high risk if they perform Basic Med exams (false and very misleading).

-Primary care physicians don't understand what Basic Med is and what they are signing.

-Basic Med is a congressional program, the result of a lobbying group (AOPA), not an FAA program.

-Now just a personal thought......The FAA does not want to give up any control and has no interest in supporting a program that was essentially crammed down their throat by congress. Government agencies at their core seek for more control and power, not less. They can't help it. 

Like any change it will take some time. Personally, I believe the core concept of Basic Med make a lot of sense and is an improvement in care and pilot qualification at a much more reasonable price. A pilots physician should be more qualified to render an opinion as to the health of their patient. This program is also consistent with the DOT CDL medical certificate for commercial truck drivers.

If it is of help to anyone, I am willing to provide Basic Med exams at Oshkosh is year. I will be there all week, hopefully camping close to the Mooney Caravan site. PM me if you have interest.   

At our FAAST meeting last Saturday, our guest speaker was our new local AME.  He is believer in the BasicMed, but he states his malpractice carrier will NOT cover him for a BasicMed exam, therefore he will not perform the Exam.

The confusion continues..............maybe one day :-)

 

[HRM]

8 minutes ago, MooneyMitch said:

The confusion continues..............maybe one day :-)

 

Don't hold your breath. What kills me is that people do not seem to understand the difference between examination and treatment--two completely different things with two very different levels of risk.

[steingar]

I once had a student who was a mechanical engineering major who wanted to go to medical school after college.  I introduced her to the concept of opportunity cost, and asked the difference between what she would make as an engineer vs. what she would spend to get the MD.  I think I then asked how long she'd have to work as an MD to break even and actually make more than she would have as an engineer.

I then mentioned that if she weren't profligate and invested some of her engineering salary she'd never break even asa  physician ever.  I could see the wheels turning on that one.

[KLRDMD]

35 minutes ago, steingar said:

I once had a student who was a mechanical engineering major who wanted to go to medical school after college.  I introduced her to the concept of opportunity cost, and asked the difference between what she would make as an engineer vs. what she would spend to get the MD.  I think I then asked how long she'd have to work as an MD to break even and actually make more than she would have as an engineer.

Often, especially in health care, it isn't about the money.

[flyboy0681]

34 minutes ago, KLRDMD said:

Often, especially in health care, it isn't about the money.

Exactly.

[steingar]

7 hours ago, KLRDMD said:

Often, especially in health care, it isn't about the money.

Perhaps, but an opportunity cost of close to a million dollars does give one pause. And to be honest, there are a lot more people who can make food doctors than ones who can make good engineers.

[Piloto]

Cataracts

One way to asses if you are healthy for flying is your driving performance. Driving under high traffic conditions on I-95 really test your reflexes and visual acuity, specially at night. 4 years ago I was having problems reading street signs at night and sometimes during daytime, but never reading taxiways signs at night. New glasses prescription didn't fix the problem. My ophthalmologist diagnosed as cataracts condition on both eyes. He replaced my original cataract lenses with $4,000 high tech lenses in a half hour procedure with me awake. I was able to see the whole surgery. After three days with an eye patch on my right eye he removed it and I was shock. It was like going from the old TV picture quality to HDTV. As I was driving home the color of the trees and the sky was very vivid. I noticed that I needed sunglasses because of the super transparency of the new lenses. I could see very clear the street signs at night without any eyeglasses. My left lens is multifocal for nearby and far reading, my right lens is for far reading but good enough to read a computer monitor. Very happy with my new lenses.

[Ned Gravel]

1 hour ago, Piloto said:

Cataracts

Very happy with my new lenses.

+1

[flyboy0681]

8 hours ago, Piloto said:

Cataracts

One way to asses if you are healthy for flying is your driving performance. Driving under high traffic conditions on I-95 really test your reflexes and visual acuity, specially at night. 4 years ago I was having problems reading street signs at night and sometimes during daytime, but never reading taxiways signs at night. New glasses prescription didn't fix the problem. My ophthalmologist diagnosed as cataracts condition on both eyes. He replaced my original cataract lenses with $4,000 high tech lenses in a half hour procedure with me awake. I was able to see the whole surgery. After three days with an eye patch on my right eye he removed it and I was shock. It was like going from the old TV picture quality to HDTV. As I was driving home the color of the trees and the sky was very vivid. I noticed that I needed sunglasses because of the super transparency of the new lenses. I could see very clear the street signs at night without any eyeglasses. My left lens is multifocal for nearby and far reading, my right lens is for far reading but good enough to read a computer monitor. Very happy with my new lenses.

This somewhat complex procedure has turned into a very common and cost effective one over the past two decades. But keep in mind that literally tens of millions of people around the world are blind because they don't have access to it.

[Tommy]

On ‎6‎/‎26‎/‎2018 at 3:00 AM, steingar said:

I once had a student who was a mechanical engineering major who wanted to go to medical school after college.  I introduced her to the concept of opportunity cost, and asked the difference between what she would make as an engineer vs. what she would spend to get the MD.  I think I then asked how long she'd have to work as an MD to break even and actually make more than she would have as an engineer.

I then mentioned that if she weren't profligate and invested some of her engineering salary she'd never break even asa  physician ever.  I could see the wheels turning on that one.

Purely my own observation: almost always, those who speak ill of studying medicine are neither doctors themselves nor able to get into med in the first place. And many of these people, if presented, would've taken the opportunity without batting an eye. One thing I learnt in life is never ask advice from someone who has never done it before... 

If money and opportunity cost are everything, many of us wouldn't be flying at all, let alone owns a plane. 

 

[Tommy]

On ‎6‎/‎26‎/‎2018 at 10:41 AM, steingar said:

Perhaps, but an opportunity cost of close to a million dollars does give one pause. And to be honest, there are a lot more people who can make food doctors than ones who can make good engineers. 

Be honest with what? Your own sense of self-importance and arrogance? Do you have any evidence to back up this "honest opinion?"

I take it that you meant "good" not "food..."

 

[Jerry 5TJ]

I’d prefer we judge people not by the words on their sheepskins but by the quality of their character.