M20K 231 GB to LB question

[Drumstick]

Can the conversion/upgrade from the early GB to LB motor be done during a field overhaul or does it require a factory overhaul?  Would an intercooler make this conversion unnecessary?

[kortopates]

12 minutes ago, Drumstick said:

Can the conversion/upgrade from the early GB to LB motor be done during a field overhaul or does it require a factory overhaul?  Would an intercooler make this conversion unnecessary?

It can be done anytime, you just need the parts. Of course its easier to do during an overhaul but you will want to price out the parts with an overhauler for the conversion (which includes a different induction system and other changes) because you will probably pay the full cost of the new parts with a field overhaul and probably not pay anything extra to trade your existing GB core in for factory overhaul or rebuilt. But you'll have to make some inquires to be sure about the actual cost. And perhaps larger overhauler like Western Skyways (perhaps the biggest overhauler in the country) may very well be able to get you the new parts you need as salvaged/overhauled rather than buy new and save you $ too. 

Intercooler is an independent consideration that won't change a thing.

[jlunseth]

The intercooler will make your engine run cooler.  I have the -LB with a Turboplus (and a Merlyn).  It has a Compressor Discharge Temp redline of 280 dF.  The CDT redline is there to prevent detonation as a result of overly hot induction air temps entering the cylinders.  During ascents to the flight levels on a hot day my CDT often exceeds redline and gets as high as about 295 dF.  But that’s not a problem with the intercooler.  I have both a CDT and an Induction Air Temp readout on my JPI, and the difference between the two in cruise is around 100 dF or more thanks to the intercooler.  My CDT may be 290, but the IAT is maybe 180, much cooler.  But I nonetheless agree with Paul, of the two ways to cool the engine better, the LB conversion or the intercooler, I would first do the LB conversion.  I would take the improved induction system any day.  For one thing the intercooler is less effective at lower speeds such as maneuvering because there is less cooling air over the fins of the intercooler.  If you are looking for a way to sort of limp along, keep the engine somewhat cooler for a couple of hundred hours until you get it to TBO and then do the conversion, I suppose the intercooler would help some, and then you would have it when you do the conversion.  But if the choice is just one or the other, do the conversion.

[231LV]

I recently priced(within the last 6 months) an LB upgrade from my existing GB at both engine overhaulers (Western Skyways, Victor Aviation, Ly-Con etc) and factory reman from Continental....The overhaulers were from $43k to $60k...some poo poo'd the idea of "blueprinting" and others (who quoted the highest) said it would really make for a smoother running engine...The factory quoted around $53k....in all cases, my mechanic told me it would be around $7-8k for R&R, hoses, fittings, etc...I have a Turboplus Intercooler and the GB is Gami'd.... as one previous poster pointed out, you can use someone who does a field overhaul or an engine overhauler specialist or the factory at anytime...you will automatically get the LB engine from a engine specialist or the factory...if you pay someone to rebuild the GB as a field overhaul, you will still have a GB...I would not stay with the GB as it is like a non-WAAS'd GPS on resale value.

[jlunseth]

Those prices are for installing a reman’d LB.  I suppose that is with a core credit.  I do have a thought for you.  At around 1400 hours I had my engine IRAN’d here locally, I had had to make an emergency descent to a landing (which worked out well) but we were concerned about the engine.  It cost somewhere between 7 and 8 AMUs, and they did a superb job.  It was not a field overhaul, I did not get a new TBO, but they went through the engine very thoroughly.  The engine was much smoother, and I have had several Mooney CFI’s remark about it.  They are Bolduc Aviation at the Anoka airport in Minneapolis (acutally, Anoka, which is a suburb).  Might run it by them and see what the cost would be.  If I recall correctly though, making a GB into an LB may involve enlarging the ports where the induction system bolts to the head.  Yes the engine plate will still say GB.

[CaptRJM]

My -LB has 1400 hours and is still running great. I had my AP get me a quote from Triad in Burlington NC a few months back so I could update my numbers. They quoted $35K to overhaul with new Continental Cylinders. When we added in the costs of overhauling everything else, a complete new exhaust and labor to remove and reinstall the estimated cost was between $53K and $55K. 

I don’t know the costs for the -LB induction system so that would have to be factored in. 

[kortopates]

Just to clarify:

1) a field Overhaul can include converting your GB to an LB and then the data plate will be modified to reflect that (TSIO-GBcLB)

2) ANY Overhaul done by anyone other than the Factory (I.e. Continental) is by definition a "field overhaul".

3) only a factory "rebuilt" engine can zero the time since New, all others (field overhauls track time since New and zero time since overhaul). That doesn't mean that rebuilt engines come with all new parts though. See https://www.avweb.com/news/maint/182826-1.html

 

Again though, if you don't exchange your GB core for someone LB Overhaul or factory engine, some one, you or the rebuilder, will have to supply the parts that change between the GB and LB.

But any body can convert the GB to the LB anytime. I converted my -MB to a -SB at midtime without doing an IRAN or overhaul - just annual.

 

 

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[kortopates]

Those prices are for installing a reman’d LB.  I suppose that is with a core credit.  I do have a thought for you.  At around 1400 hours I had my engine IRAN’d here locally, I had had to make an emergency descent to a landing (which worked out well) but we were concerned about the engine.  It cost somewhere between 7 and 8 AMUs, and they did a superb job.  It was not a field overhaul, I did not get a new TBO, but they went through the engine very thoroughly.  The engine was much smoother, and I have had several Mooney CFI’s remark about it.  They are Bolduc Aviation at the Anoka airport in Minneapolis (acutally, Anoka, which is a suburb).  Might run it by them and see what the cost would be.  If I recall correctly though, making a GB into an LB may involve enlarging the ports where the induction system bolts to the head.  Yes the engine plate will still say GB.

FWIW, I'd like to commend you for being really wise about it and exercising responsible good judgement in doing that. Odds were that it was okay, but why risk your life, your family and unsuspecting pax. Heard to many horror stories about owners selling with such things undisclosed.


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[jlunseth]

Thanks.  I am like you Paul. I love challenges and adventure.  I enjoy it so much I want to do it again, which means that staying alive to be able to do so is a priority.  I can’t take the credit though, the guys at Willmar said “you should do this” and it made sense to me, so I did.  It turned out great, much less vibration, the engine purrs.

[mike_elliott]

17 hours ago, 231LV said:

I recently priced(within the last 6 months) an LB upgrade from my existing GB at both engine overhaulers (Western Skyways, Victor Aviation, Ly-Con etc) and factory reman from Continental....The overhaulers were from $43k to $60k...some poo poo'd the idea of "blueprinting" and others (who quoted the highest) said it would really make for a smoother running engine...The factory quoted around $53k....in all cases, my mechanic told me it would be around $7-8k for R&R, hoses, fittings, etc...I have a Turboplus Intercooler and the GB is Gami'd.... as one previous poster pointed out, you can use someone who does a field overhaul or an engine overhauler specialist or the factory at anytime...you will automatically get the LB engine from a engine specialist or the factory...if you pay someone to rebuild the GB as a field overhaul, you will still have a GB...I would not stay with the GB as it is like a non-WAAS'd GPS on resale value.

Those numbers are about as much as Bravo OH numbers

[Cardinal767]

I replaced my -GB with a factory overhauled -LB year before last year. With going with the -LB, it comes with slightly larger induction, the Ray Jay turbocharger is gone, and the TBO is now 2000 hours instead of 1800. I also put Gami injectors in. I’m very pleased with all my temps now. 

[kortopates]

9 hours ago, Cardinal767 said:

I replaced my -GB with a factory overhauled -LB year before last year. With going with the -LB, it comes with slightly larger induction, the Ray Jay turbocharger is gone, and the TBO is now 2000 hours instead of 1800. I also put Gami injectors in. I’m very pleased with all my temps now. 

That's definitely the easiest way to do it - as an exchange with a factory new, reman or overhaul. But the turbo didn't change (Hartzell has taken them over) and the increased TBO only comes with factory engines - which is nice for resale value. Most of these TSIO-360's do benefit from Gami's. 

Did you go from a Cardinal to your 231? That's quite an upgrade if the Cardinal didn't have the TAT Turbo too

[Cardinal767]

Yes sir Paul, I owned a Cardinal for ten years and enjoyed it. I couldn’t get a turbo upgrade then on my FG 177, it was only offered to the RG crowd. I’ve really enjoyed my M20K since getting it, I wasn’t looking for one, but glad I took the leap of faith. I do fly other aircraft for a living, mainly jets, so the transition was uneventful. With all the information available here, there was no surprises when I got behind the yoke. I stand corrected on the turbocharger replacement. The choice to go with a factory reman was completely mathematical, you nailed it with the TBO and resale. The $10k-$15k extra spent, plus Gami’s made it so much smoother than the OEM set. EDM-830 to monitor my investment, Monet is one sweet ride. I’ve had her to FL230 without any temp problems, just still wanting to know more on what altitude and RPM’s are best for the turbocharged engine LOP. Even with a .4 to .5 Gami spread, some settings have unnerved me with how rough the engine has been at higher altitudes. 

[kortopates]

35 minutes ago, Cardinal767 said:

Yes sir Paul, I owned a Cardinal for ten years and enjoyed it. I couldn’t get a turbo upgrade then on my FG 177, it was only offered to the RG crowd. I’ve really enjoyed my M20K since getting it, I wasn’t looking for one, but glad I took the leap of faith. I do fly other aircraft for a living, mainly jets, so the transition was uneventful. With all the information available here, there was no surprises when I got behind the yoke. I stand corrected on the turbocharger replacement. The choice to go with a factory reman was completely mathematical, you nailed it with the TBO and resale. The $10k-$15k extra spent, plus Gami’s made it so much smoother than the OEM set. EDM-830 to monitor my investment, Monet is one sweet ride. I’ve had her to FL230 without any temp problems, just still wanting to know more on what altitude and RPM’s are best for the turbocharged engine LOP. Even with a .4 to .5 Gami spread, some settings have unnerved me with how rough the engine has been at higher altitudes. 

Glad your enjoying your new 231. I was curious about the Cardinal because I have a friend and colleague at SavvyAviation that also flies a retractable Cardinal. She doesn't have the TAT turbo either but another friend of hers does. You might miss the SUV like room of the Cardinal, but I am sure you'll enjoy the much higher cruise airspeed at altitude and increased range.   

[LANCECASPER]

On 3/7/2018 at 1:29 AM, Cardinal767 said:

I replaced my -GB with a factory overhauled -LB year before last year. With going with the -LB, it comes with slightly larger induction, the Ray Jay turbocharger is gone, and the TBO is now 2000 hours instead of 1800. I also put Gami injectors in. I’m very pleased with all my temps now. 

Unfortunately that 2000 TBO doesn't apply to most people. Continental's Service letter says that for engines that consistently accumulate 40 or more hours per month since being placed in service you can add 200 hours to the recommended TBO. (http://www.continentalmotors.aero/uploadedFiles/Content/xImages/TBO Page SIL98-9C.pdf)

[kortopates]

2 hours ago, LANCECASPER said:

Unfortunately that 2000 TBO doesn't apply to most people. Continental's Service letter says that for engines that consistently accumulate 40 or more hours per month since being placed in service you can add 200 hours to the recommended TBO. (http://www.continentalmotors.aero/uploadedFiles/Content/xImages/TBO Page SIL98-9C.pdf)

I think you may be misinterpreting. The earlier comment about the factory engines getting an increased 200 hrs on TBO doesn't require 40 or more hours per month, it just requires a new serial number of above 1006000. That is all or most of the new factory engines are coming with 200 hrs more on TBO as denoted in the second column of the SIL. But what you point out is another independent means to quality for an additional 200 hrs increase on top of the published TBO's, which as you say won't apply to typical aircraft owners.

[LANCECASPER]

5 minutes ago, kortopates said:

I think you may be misinterpreting. The earlier comment about the factory engines getting an increased 200 hrs on TBO doesn't require 40 or more hours per month, it just requires a new serial number of above 1006000. That is all or most of the new factory engines are coming with 200 hrs more on TBO as denoted in the second column of the SIL. But what you point out is another independent means to quality for an additional 200 hrs increase on top of the published TBO's, which as you say won't apply to typical aircraft owners.

Thanks for the clarification! So if someone flew it 40 hours a month then recommended TBO would be 2200. Nice to know.

[anonymouse]

I've read this thread a few times now and didn't see how much it is to upgrade a GB to LB at say, an annual instead of an engine rebuild event. Has anyone priced that out?

Edited March 13, 2018 by anonymouse

[N231BN]

I've read this thread a few times now and didn't see how much it is to upgrade a GB to LB at say, an annual instead of an engine rebuild event. Has anyone priced that out?

You are better off putting the money into an intercooler, if you already have one fly and enjoy!