Prop Strike

[AaronC]

Not by my doing, but my airplane (62 M20C) has had a prop strike (from a porpoised landing). This was a few weeks ago, and we've worked out all the insurance stuff, and figured out a way to move forward.

1st lesson learned... make sure you insure your airplane for what you can get a comparable plane at. We got such a great deal on our plane, and insured it for only slightly more than we paid. The insurance company initially told us that it was going to be considered a complete loss. We have a 3 blade Hartzell, but told them we could go with a 2 blade to lower the repair cost, and it lowered it enough to avoid the complete loss... so we're going to get it repaired. 

The plan is to pull the engine to have it inspected (by Zephyr engines), and get the two blade prop put on. We have a brand new mag on there (less than 1 hour), and one old one that was going to be replaced soon anyway. Since we're getting a set amount for repairs, we are obviously trying to make sure we get everything covered with the money we get... My questions are:

1. Would you replace the new mag? 

2. New 2 blade prop, or find a used one and have it overhauled?

3. New fuel pump?

It has been suggested that we just do an overhaul at this point since we're going to have the engine out anyway and torn down somewhat. The engine only has 300hrs on it, so not sure it's worth it at this point. The overhaul was done 13 years ago, so depending on if they find any corrosion, we may need to replace more parts. Not sure if it's worth the money for the overhaul though.

Any other thoughts? Anyone have a prop they want to sell?

[carusoam]

There is a procedure to be followed for a prop strike with any engine...

get a copy... then decide...

An engine near TBO often gets an OH.

An engine closer to new gets opened up to check the health of specific parts.

insurance usually follows the remove, inspect, replace broken parts, put back together, reinstall and test...

They have a term for improvements as well.  You may want to improve some things.  The term is betterment.

PP thoughts only. I had the ground strike a Propeller when I a couple of states away....

Best regards,

-a-

[AaronC]

My mechanic has that... and is following it, but as I believe, it's just a recommendation. The engine is definitely coming out to be inspected... that's not an option, just curious on the rest.

[carusoam]

The procedure is not a recommendation...

It is based on the statistics of similar engines that have seen similar situations.

If this happens, then that needs to be followed, kind of thing.

Lycoming has written what a ground strike is.  Updated recently to include everything including running into tall grass...

It really doesn't matter what caused the damage. You just want to be sure an unseen crack in a crankshaft doesn’t develop into a prop departing the aircraft under load.

the nice part of MS is you can discuss this openly and a real mechanic may help you get the understanding you want.

Back in the day, a simple check of the prop flange was considered enough of a test.  Unfortunately, a crack may not cause a measurable deflection of the prop flange.

Best regards,

-a-

[MIm20c]

What shop did the overhaul 13 years ago?

[carusoam]

What are your reservations of the three things you listed?

Some people...

1) prefer the two blade over the three. Some don't.

2) people enjoy saving money on used hardware. Some have a plan to get an updated TopProp or MT...

3) If you want a factory reman...   now is the time to get one... the insurance is paying for removal and reinstallation and a few bucks for all the other things...

4) discuss these options with your insurance company.

5) there are definitely pluses and minuses of partnerships. But, if you decide to go ahead with a factory reman, the cost is split amongst more users...

My engine was near TBO. It made more sense to OH it...

You might want to have some cylinders pulled just to look inside at the cam to see what it’s health is before finalizing a decision. Discuss the other things with your mechanic to determine if they are needs or if they will be betterment.  There is guidance to be followed for engines being exchanged for factory reman...

lots to think about... 

Best regards,

-a-

[AaronC]

Mlm20c- Poplar Grove did the overhaul

carusoam- Thanks for the great thoughts. We will definitely have the cylinders pulled to inspect the cam for corrosion. 

[xcrmckenna]

I wish my prop would fit on your plane, then I would have a good excuse to order an MT.

This is probably a dumb question. You said the insurance has set the pay out. But if there is internal damage found in the tear down they will cover that? Right? If there is damage found that is when I would go with the full overhaul.

Someone can tell me this would be a not event but if the mags get stopped abruptly when the engine does due to the prop strike I would want those internal parts inspected with at least an Iran. Those plastic teeth probably don’t take much to be compromised. But I don’t know the exact design of them and how they react.

That’s great you guys are willing to make compromises to keep her whole and fly her again soon.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[gsxrpilot]

Great job on the rescue.

Insurance coverage is becoming a real issue with the vintage Mooneys in the fleet. Most C's and a lot of E's aren't really worth much more than the cost of the prop-strike repair and that gets them scraped. Exhibit A is my old C, 6XM. 

I think if I was flying a C or E that I wanted to keep flying, I'd have it insured for as much as the insurance company would allow. And I'd have negotiated that number up as high as it would go. That's the only way to guarantee a repair and not the scrap yard.

Hull value on an M20C $50K=scrap or $60K=repair. The line is in there somewhere.

[ragedracer1977]

I insured mine enough to be able to replace it with a similar condition plane.  If they scrap it if I have a prop strike, no big deal because I can buy substantially the same thing, prebuy and expenses included.  

[Guest]

AD 2004-14-10 make compliance with Lycoming SB475C mandatory.  It does not call for engine removal and tear down.

Lycoming SB533C is the optional tear down bulletin.

Clarence

[flyboy0681]

3 hours ago, AaronC said:

1st lesson learned... make sure you insure your airplane for what you can get a comparable plane at. We got such a great deal on our plane, and insured it for only slightly more than we paid. The insurance company initially told us that it was going to be considered a complete loss. We have a 3 blade Hartzell, but told them we could go with a 2 blade to lower the repair cost, and it lowered it enough to avoid the complete loss... so we're going to get it repaired. 

 

This is a lesson that only has to be learned once. When our J model ran off the end of the runway back in September I feared the insurance company would call it a complete loss, but lucky for my partners and I they agreed to repair it.  It wasn't until this episode that we realized just how under-insured we were. Once we get her back we will have 30 days in which to increase the value, a value which will more than pay for an equivalent replacement.

Lesson learned.

 

[jetdriven]

Likewise you don’t want to over insure it either. If your J is insured for say, 200k, it has to take ~120-140k in damage to total it. That’s a very heavily damaged airplane that you may not want back but you will be forced to take it. Ours is insured for 120k (twice what we bought it for)  about what I can get a good J with fresh paint fresh factory motor, GTN750 etc.  

[gsxrpilot]

I believe there's a curve here. It's not linear. As you get to newer and higher value airplanes, the chance of a simple prop strike totaling the airplane goes away. Certainly the overhaul of the engine in the new ultra will cost more than the overhaul of an O360. But that cost as a percentage of the value of the plane is much lower. 

I have my K insured for $160K which is about what I think it's worth after all the work I've done. And at that valuation, there's no way a simple prop strike would total it. A C valued at $50K very well might get totaled for a prop strike which would be unfortunate if it's a good C.

[flyboy0681]

1 hour ago, jetdriven said:

Likewise you don’t want to over insure it either. If your J is insured for say, 200k, it has to take ~120-140k in damage to total it. That’s a very heavily damaged airplane that you may not want back but you will be forced to take it. Ours is insured for 120k (twice what we bought it for)  about what I can get a good J with fresh paint fresh factory motor, GTN750 etc.  

That's just it, we are insured for $115 and when I thought it was a total loss I started looking around for a comparable J and discovered it would cost at least $135k equipped just as mine is (GTN 750, KAP 150 & 25 hours on the overhaul). Not sure where you are seeing J's in that price range.

[jetdriven]

5 hours ago, flyboy0681 said:

That's just it, we are insured for $115 and when I thought it was a total loss I started looking around for a comparable J and discovered it would cost at least $135k equipped just as mine is (GTN 750, KAP 150 & 25 hours on the overhaul). Not sure where you are seeing J's in that price range.

Maybe we are underinsured. All that’s left to do is a modern autopilot, PFD/MFD, and new seat leather. 

[MIm20c]

17 hours ago, AaronC said:

Mlm20c- Poplar Grove did the overhaul

carusoam- Thanks for the great thoughts. We will definitely have the cylinders pulled to inspect the cam for corrosion. 

Sounds like it had a good overhaul. I’d send it back to the same shop if it was mine but just for an inspection unless something else was discovered. 

[aviatoreb]

9 hours ago, jetdriven said:

Likewise you don’t want to over insure it either. If your J is insured for say, 200k, it has to take ~120-140k in damage to total it. That’s a very heavily damaged airplane that you may not want back but you will be forced to take it. Ours is insured for 120k (twice what we bought it for)  about what I can get a good J with fresh paint fresh factory motor, GTN750 etc.  

I saw an Acclaim that had been extensively restored by a magician-shop Dave at AirMods in NJ (no better in the business), and when I later saw the before the fix pictures, I was thoroughly amazed.  When insuring an airplane like that for what, 500k?  That pays for a lot of restoration work.

[mike_elliott]

5 hours ago, jetdriven said:

Maybe we are underinsured. All that’s left to do is a modern autopilot, PFD/MFD, and new seat leather. 

Dont forget a pee tube

 

[AlexLev]

Thanks to this thread, I just upped the insurance value by 10k on my M20G. Extra ~$117 premium per year, but worth it.

[rpcc]

On 2/4/2018 at 10:45 PM, jetdriven said:

Likewise you don’t want to over insure it either. If your J is insured for say, 200k, it has to take ~120-140k in damage to total it. That’s a very heavily damaged airplane that you may not want back but you will be forced to take it. Ours is insured for 120k (twice what we bought it for)  about what I can get a good J with fresh paint fresh factory motor, GTN750 etc.  

I'm not an insurance expert, but my understanding is that insurance will only pay out what you have actually paid for the plane, boat, car etc regardless of the insured value.  The insurance company  will want receipts is my guess.  If someone knows otherwise, please let me know.

[ELT]

hi rpcc,

Aviation insurance will pay the insured value not purchase price or valuation.  As pointed out over insuring can get you an aircraft with long repair time and under insuring can get the airplane totaled.   If you request an extremely high insured value the insurance company may not accept it.

[rpcc]

Thanks ELT.  

[banjo]

Have a 3 blade Mc Cauley if your looking for a prop

[gsxrpilot]

9 hours ago, ELT said:

hi rpcc,

Aviation insurance will pay the insured value not purchase price or valuation.  As pointed out over insuring can get you an aircraft with long repair time and under insuring can get the airplane totaled.   If you request an extremely high insured value the insurance company may not accept it.

Yep, it's called Agreed Value insurance. They will pay whatever it's insured for.