Advice on turbo Mooney

[Hugemiester]

7 hours ago, gsxrpilot said:

Welcome aboard. I was once dreaming of either a 252 or Bravo. I decided the ongoing care and feeding of the Bravo was a bit beyond my comfort zone. So I now own, fly, and enjoy very much, an M20K 252 TSE.

Happy to answer any questions about it...

Thanks for the follow up. I will reach out to you as I get closer. I think I need to sit in each and hopefully fly in each. For some reason I’m pretty amped up on the bravo. There are a couple with FIKI right now that intrigue me. This Texas plane has an amazing panel. Seems like the perfect Bravo. https://www.controller.com/listings/aircraft/for-sale/26966469/1990-mooney-m20m-bravo.

Then there’s this little beauty! https://www.fsboauctions.net/product/1986-mooney-m20k-252-tse/ Not sure what the auction this no s all about since it seems to have been listed for 8 months. I’m not rich, but I compare these two and the bravo has more perceived value to me with the panel and FIKI. Did you wrestle with all that too when you were looking? 

1 minute ago, carusoam said:

The transition from NA to TC’d bird is one thing...

Raising the HP/WGT ratio is another...

The TC carries that ratio up to the FLs...

Having Mrs. H on board with this plan is the best!

Is Mrs H. A pilot?

 

If no... has she considered the Right Seat Ready class for people that sit right seat in Mooneys...

Best regards,

-a-

She is not a pilot, but has many hours as Co-pilot. Interesting you should suggest it because she said she wanted to do that to help with things and as she put it “I want to make sure your doing what your supposed to be doing!”

She has great taste, so I think when we decide to buy,she will be an active part of it. 

Ken

[carusoam]

Ken,

MS has quite a few teams of pilots and right seaters... all throughout the various age brackets...

There is so much work involved in flying single seat IFR, it is great to have somebody there to help out...

The more motivated they are to help, the better your flying will become...

The more they know, the more comfortable they can be...

PP thoughts only, not a right seat expert...

Best regards,

-a-

[81X]

7 hours ago, Hugemiester said:

Thanks guys! I read the entire post this morning and loved it! I will get my IFR next month and fly the Cherokee in IMC this winter. I’m in N Cal about 40 nm east of SFO so I’ll have lots of time to see how I do with IFR. Then I’ll start shopping. MRS. H is on board so I’m pretty motivated. 

How was the transition training? I assume you were IFR rated as well? 

I was IFR rated but hadn't been flying in a couple years, so there was a combination of learning the complex, kicking off some rust, instrument refreshing, learning all new avionics and transition training.  It took me just over the insurance required 5 hours of dual, but I took another 5 more for the IPC after I went around and flew with some pilot friends to get back in the IFR mentality. 

So, the transition training was pretty straightforward as I had a good instructor- he wasn't a Mooney guy per se but had time in Mooneys and something like 25K plus hours with 5K hours in GA aircraft.  He was in it for the passion and beer money, so he actually cared about students and wanted to have fun- a good combo in my opinion.  I think it was interfacing with the AP and avionics that actually added the most difficulty, coming from a Cherokee with only a wing leveler and a GX-50 IFR GPS.  

Related to the turbos, If you have the pockets and it meets your mission, go for it. even here in the flats of the east, I love being able to quickly outclimb turbulence, cloud decks and things like that.  Yes, a NA can get up pretty high, but having a consistent power envelope at most operating altitudes is so nice. 

My Mrs. H. (also Mrs. H.)  is also on board with the Mooney as we used our Cherokee to travel and this airplane does that much quicker so it allows for longer trips.  

[gsxrpilot]

7 hours ago, Hugemiester said:

Thanks for the follow up. I will reach out to you as I get closer. I think I need to sit in each and hopefully fly in each. For some reason I’m pretty amped up on the bravo. There are a couple with FIKI right now that intrigue me. This Texas plane has an amazing panel. Seems like the perfect Bravo. https://www.controller.com/listings/aircraft/for-sale/26966469/1990-mooney-m20m-bravo.

Then there’s this little beauty! https://www.fsboauctions.net/product/1986-mooney-m20k-252-tse/ Not sure what the auction this no s all about since it seems to have been listed for 8 months. I’m not rich, but I compare these two and the bravo has more perceived value to me with the panel and FIKI. Did you wrestle with all that too when you were looking? 

I almost bought that one at auction, 252PB. It's the earliest of the 252's and wasn't one of the fully upgraded examples. I don't know about the auction... I was talking with the owner who is Dave at Air Mods in NJ, a very well known MSC.

The Bravo's a great, and I'd love to own one. But my 252 is something like 90% of the speed on 60% of the fuel. And it was $80K less expensive to buy. And when it's time to do the engine, there will again be a $50K difference in cost. The Bravo's are nicer for sure... I just didn't think they were that much nicer... and the added fuel and maintenance costs were just a bit outside my comfortable (fly anywhere anytime) budget. If it did fit in the budget, I'd fly a Bravo.

[jlunseth]

I have friends with Bravos, I have a 231, and I covet a Bravo primarily because of the ability to add FIKI de-icing.  Bravos are quite a bit more expensive to buy than 231’s or 252’s, about 100,000 more than a 231 (about double the price) and about 30-40% more than a 252.  The engines are also considerably more expensive when OH time comes.  My practical range in my 231 is 4 1/2 hours, I could probably stretch it to 6 in a pinch but I prefer landing with a cushion and no tanks blinking red.  I have a friend with a 205 (a type of 201) and a Bravo.  His 205 range is about the same as mine, but the Bravo’s practical range is 3 hours.  He uses around 20 GPH and I use around 11 in my 231, so the fuel flow is considerably greater in the Bravo. I have read that others get in the 17 GPH range.  It is, at any rate, quite a bit more than a 231 or 252.  The useful load is typically lower than a 231 or 252 also.  That said, they are very capable aircraft and if I were flying as much as I used to, I would make the switch to that or to an Acclaim, just to have the FIKI.

The aftermarket wastegate for the 231 is the Merlyn, and although the Merlyn was marketed as an “automatic” wastegate, it is not what is generally considered an automatic wastegate.  It is a differential pressure controller only, which maintains a constant pressure difference between the turbo outpot and the pressure in the induction system.  This prevents the turbo from bootstrapping, where the turbo starts to run up or down because the pressure in the exhaust system is changing.  The net effect is that if you set an MP and do not change anything else (such as altitude) the MP will stay stable.  But it is up to the pilot to manage MP with altitude changes.  If you takeoff at 36” and start a climb to the flight levels you will need to adjust MP a few times during the climb.  You can’t ever simply firewall the throttle unless you are at around 21-22,000.  With an automatic wastegate, you set say 32” and it will maintain 32”.  If you are doing something like commercial maneuvers, throttle management is a little bit of a task.  So there is some fiddling, but generally I agree with my 231 colleagues, it is not much fiddling.  Easy to learn. The 231 has quite alot going for it.  Now that I have figured out how to run it lean of peak, the fuel flow is really excellent for great airspeed.  

[Hugemiester]

Thanks for all the help guys! 

[LANCECASPER]

On 9/23/2018 at 8:24 AM, gsxrpilot said:

I almost bought that one at auction, 252PB. It's the earliest of the 252's and wasn't one of the fully upgraded examples. I don't know about the auction... I was talking with the owner who is Dave at Air Mods in NJ, a very well known MSC.

The Bravo's a great, and I'd love to own one. But my 252 is something like 90% of the speed on 60% of the fuel. And it was $80K less expensive to buy. And when it's time to do the engine, there will again be a $50K difference in cost. The Bravo's are nicer for sure... I just didn't think they were that much nicer... and the added fuel and maintenance costs were just a bit outside my comfortable (fly anywhere anytime) budget. If it did fit in the budget, I'd fly a Bravo.

It's $413 dollars difference on the two engines if you do a factory engine exchange, with the 252 engine being more expensive. The labor for the exchange should be roughly the same. The exhaust system may be a little higher on the Bravo.

Continental doesn't do "factory overhauled" so you if you go the factory engine route the "Rebuilt" 252 engine is $59561.

With Lycoming if you go with the "Factory Overhauled" option it's $59,147 on the Bravo engine. Everyone who deals with Lycoming engines will tell you that a "Factory Overhauled" engine goes down the same line and gets the same parts as the rebuilt. On the Bravo engine especially since there isn't much turnover, you are likely to get a rebuilt engine if you order an overhauled, just no zero-time logbook. (If you absolutely have to have a zero time logbook, then a Factory Rebuilt is 65,647. However if yours is a first run engine they will give you the Rebuilt for the Overhauled price.)

 

 

 

 

If you do a engine shop overhaul with factory new cylinders it will be about a $7632 difference since Bravo cylinders are much more expensive new ($1675 each vs. $2947 each). However if you have them overhaul the cylinders it will be a couple thousand dollars difference because of the very expensive valve guides used on the Bravo cylinders. The oil-cooled-valve-guide Bravo cylinders have a better history than Continental cylinders and should make TBO. With Continental it seems like about half of the engines need a top overhaul before TBO. So really in  2000 hours it's very close to a wash. But with either engine the most important consideration is on how it is flown.

 

Either way you are still overhauling a six cylinder turbo-charged engine. However you are traveling roughly 20 more miles on each hour with the Bravo so over 2000 hours you are getting 40,000 more miles out of an engine rebuild. That comes into play you consider engine costs per hour and fuel costs per hour.

 

 

[MIm20c]

What would be the fuel burn difference 252 vs bravo vs 252 rocket at 15k doing 185?

My outside view is the cost would be similar minus slightly higher fuel burn. 

[CoffeeCan]

5 hours ago, 81X said:

I was IFR rated but hadn't been flying in a couple years, so there was a combination of learning the complex, kicking off some rust, instrument refreshing, learning all new avionics and transition training.  It took me just over the insurance required 5 hours of dual, but I took another 5 more for the IPC after I went around and flew with some pilot friends to get back in the IFR mentality. 

So, the transition training was pretty straightforward as I had a good instructor- he wasn't a Mooney guy per se but had time in Mooneys and something like 25K plus hours with 5K hours in GA aircraft.  He was in it for the passion and beer money, so he actually cared about students and wanted to have fun- a good combo in my opinion.  I think it was interfacing with the AP and avionics that actually added the most difficulty, coming from a Cherokee with only a wing leveler and a GX-50 IFR GPS.  

Related to the turbos, If you have the pockets and it meets your mission, go for it. even here in the flats of the east, I love being able to quickly outclimb turbulence, cloud decks and things like that.  Yes, a NA can get up pretty high, but having a consistent power envelope at most operating altitudes is so nice. 

81X, my transition training  this past July was similar... I took 15 hours dual from David McGee at All American Aviation, and it was worth every minute and every penny, but we didn't hardly scratch the surface of the avionics. David used to be chief test pilot at the Mooney factory, and it's apparent that what he has forgotten about flying Mooneys isn't worth remembering. Outstanding instructor and a great guy. 

Most of what we concentrated on was engine management, takeoffs, and LANDINGS. Oh, and did mention engine management? We did a lot of engine management. Landings training included both descent/arrival procedures and visual approaches. We did not even begin to work with IFR. I left after instruction with 35 landings under my belt, and David's assurance that I probably wouldn't kill myself in the plane... but he also strongly suggested I not fly with passengers until I'd done at least 5 more hours in pattern work solo, and that I not fly at night or IFR. Sound advice, that. I didn't take my wife up in the Mooney until I had 25 hours in her and better than 45 landings. 

Transitioning from a Cessna 172 or Piper Cherokee to a turbo Mooney is like going from a Yugo to a Maserati. 

Edited September 23, 2018 by CoffeeCan

[CoffeeCan]

12 hours ago, carusoam said:

If no... has she considered the Right Seat Ready class for people that sit right seat in Mooneys...

Best regards,

-a-

Tell me more about Right Seat Ready. 

My wife is not a pilot, but has voiced and demonstrated real interest in being a strong co-pilot. She is learning the radios already, and wants to be involved in both VFR and IFR approaches and landings. I expect she will advance to PP eventually, but she wants to be a strong right-seater first. 

[gsxrpilot]

1 hour ago, CoffeeCan said:

Tell me more about Right Seat Ready. 

My wife is not a pilot, but has voiced and demonstrated real interest in being a strong co-pilot. She is learning the radios already, and wants to be involved in both VFR and IFR approaches and landings. I expect she will advance to PP eventually, but she wants to be a strong right-seater first. 

That's exactly what the Right Seat Ready class is for. To turn non pilots into very strong, competent, and confident copilots. And also able to know what to do in the event the pilot is incapacitated.

[gsxrpilot]

1 hour ago, MIm20c said:

What would be the fuel burn difference 252 vs bravo vs 252 rocket at 15k doing 185?

My outside view is the cost would be similar minus slightly higher fuel burn. 

This is close... 181 TAS, 15,500, 14.3 gph. That's 74% power ROP. 

 

Someone else will supply the Bravo data.

[gsxrpilot]

3 hours ago, LANCECASPER said:

It's $413 dollars difference on the two engines if you do a factory engine exchange, with the 252 engine being more expensive. The labor for the exchange should be roughly the same. The exhaust system may be a little higher on the Bravo.

Continental doesn't do "factory overhauled" so you if you go the factory engine route the "Rebuilt" 252 engine is $59561.

With Lycoming if you go with the "Factory Overhauled" option it's $59,147 on the Bravo engine. Everyone who deals with Lycoming engines will tell you that a "Factory Overhauled" engine goes down the same line and gets the same parts as the rebuilt. On the Bravo engine especially since there isn't much turnover, you are likely to get a rebuilt engine if you order an overhauled, just no zero-time logbook. (If you absolutely have to have a zero time logbook, then a Factory Rebuilt is 65,647. However if yours is a first run engine they will give you the Rebuilt for the Overhauled price.)

 

 

If you do a engine shop overhaul with factory new cylinders it will be about a $7632 difference since Bravo cylinders are much more expensive new ($1675 each vs. $2947 each). However if you have them overhaul the cylinders it will be a couple thousand dollars difference because of the very expensive valve guides used on the Bravo cylinders. The oil-cooled-valve-guide Bravo cylinders have a better history than Continental cylinders and should make TBO. With Continental it seems like about half of the engines need a top overhaul before TBO. So really in  2000 hours it's very close to a wash. But with either engine the most important consideration is on how it is flown.

Either way you are still overhauling a six cylinder turbo-charged engine. However you are traveling roughly 20 more miles on each hour with the Bravo so over 2000 hours you are getting 40,000 more miles out of an engine rebuild. That comes into play you consider engine costs per hour and fuel costs per hour.

 

 

I'm certainly not disputing your numbers... I was going off of numbers @donkaye had quoted about the care and feeding of his Bravo over the course of quite a number of years. 

And I'm with you 100% that it's all about how the engine is flown and managed.

[LANCECASPER]

On 9/23/2018 at 2:54 PM, gsxrpilot said:

I'm certainly not disputing your numbers... I was going off of numbers @donkaye had quoted about the care and feeding of his Bravo over the course of quite a number of years. 

And I'm with you 100% that it's all about how the engine is flown and managed.

It used to be a lot cheaper to buy a Continental Reman for a K model - mid 30’s.

Lycoming has become much more aggressive on their pricing on this engine. If I remember correctly 20 years ago the Bravo engine was over 50k. Not that anything in aviation is a bargain but a factory overhaul on an engine as involved as the AF1B is surprising  for the price. As an example the Lycoming turbo 6 cylinder for the Piper Mirage years ago was just a few thousand dollars more than the engine for the Bravo. Now it’s a lot more. The AE2A has two turbos but it’s $25,000 more than the Bravo engine now and it has the less expensive non-wethead cylinders.

 

 

I was really surprised at his morning when I saw how close the prices are now between the K an M factory engines. I was still thinking there was a $15,000 - $20,000 difference.

Of course with either it’s probably gonna run $10,000 - $15,000 or more by the time you remove and re-install and do all the extras that should be done at the same time.

[carusoam]

6 hours ago, CoffeeCan said:

Tell me more about Right Seat Ready. 

My wife is not a pilot, but has voiced and demonstrated real interest in being a strong co-pilot. She is learning the radios already, and wants to be involved in both VFR and IFR approaches and landings. I expect she will advance to PP eventually, but she wants to be a strong right-seater first. 

CC,

MS’s @mooneygirl/ AOPA’s Jolie Lucas/ Mooney Formator’s Buttercup and Jan (of the DMax family) have put together a great program that they present a few time each year...

Jolie and Jan have many real world skills, Mooney Aviation is just one of them...

The next one is coming up quick...

Best regards,

-a-

 

[milotron]

4 hours ago, LANCECASPER said:

It used to be a lot cheaper to buy a Continental Reman for a K model - mid 30’s.

Lycoming has become much more aggressive on their pricing on this engine. If I remember correctly 20 years ago the Bravo engine was over 50k. Not that anything in aviation is a bargain but a factory overhaul on an engine as involved as the AF1B is surprising  for the price. As an example the Lycoming turbo 6 cylinder for the Piper Mirage years ago was just a few thousand dollars more than the engine for the Bravo. Now it’s a lot more. The AE2A has two turbos but it’s $25,000 more than the Bravo engine now and it has the less expensive non-wethead cylinders.

 

I was really surprised at his morning when I saw how close the prices are now. I was still thinking there was $15,000 - $20,000 difference  between the K & M model engines.

Of course with either it’s probably gonna run $10,000 - $15,000 or more by the time you remove and re-install and do all the extras that should be done at the same time.

Does the Lycoming rebuild include the turbo and accessories? It doesn't note it while the TSIO360 listing does.

[CoffeeCan]

1 hour ago, carusoam said:

CC,

MS’s @mooneygirl/ AOPA’s Jolie Lucas/ Mooney Formator’s Buttercup and Jan (of the DMax family) have put together a great program that they present a few time each year...

Jolie and Jan have many real world skills, Mooney Aviation is just one of them...

The next one is coming up quick...

Best regards,

-a-

 

Thanks, carusoam. We are committed that weekend for a family wedding, so we will have to look at the next one. I sent the link to my wife so she can make her own plans. 

[LANCECASPER]

1 hour ago, milotron said:

Does the Lycoming rebuild include the turbo and accessories? It doesn't note it while the TSIO360 listing does.

Going through the factory it does, yes.

[Hugemiester]

Hello all! What an amazing day I had. I have business in MSP next week so I came today. Tim at Strategic Aircraft took time this afternoon to fly an M20k to Flying Cloud and take me for a ride! What a class act! I told him I’m further than kicking tires, but not ready to buy. He insisted and said it’s what he does! 

I was nothing short of AMAZED! Climb rate was shocking! We went to 9000’, he set the manifold pressure, etc and configured  us for level flight and we saw 176 TAS and 183 GS burning 13.5gph! I was amazed! I know I’ve read all about these birds but what a great experience my first ride was!

Thanks Tim! Your a class act! No sales pitch, just filled my head with cool info about Mooney’s. 

Dont know why the last pic is oriented 90 degrees off, but you get the drift! 

[carusoam]

Nice pirep, huge!

Tim has been around Mooneys for a good while.

Best regards,

-a-