stormscope sensor location

[Browncbr1]

I am about to install an insight strikefinder I've had on my shelf for a while now.  While I'm under the plane, I plan to remove an old narcomatic teardrop bulb that protrudes from the bottom of the tailcone between the battery and strobe.  I had the ADF unit pulled a few years ago, but the guy just snipped the wire and left the antenna..  Anyway, after reading up on the technology that was used to build the strikefinder, it seems that the the sensor is little more than a 360 degree ADF antenna. 

So, my question is, if the narcomatic sensor was installed in a location which seems to have required some amount of 'quite' area of the skin, would it be reasonable that the strikefinder sensor could be installed directly where there narcomatic is rather than have to patch up the 2" hole that will be there after removing it?

Thank you very much antenna gurus

[N201MKTurbo]

What does the installation manual say about antenna location?

[takair]

If you can use the location of the old ADF I would try it.  The proper way to select the location is using a skin mapper with all aircraft equipment turned on.  It is really just a sensitive noise sensor tuned to the same frequencies as the stormscope.  It used to be made by Goodrich.  There are a couple of other techniques that may work.....like wiring but not mounting the antenna until assuring no false strikes and perhaps using an AM radio tuned off frequency while listening for noise induced by the aircraft.  You are correct about the ADF and the strike finder using similar technology, so if your ADF was clean across the spectrum, then good chance the strike finder will be good.  If you heard strobe noise or other noise in the ADF, you may get false strikes.  Strobes, motors, beacons, bad bonding, and failing alternators tend to be the biggest sources of false strikes.  

[Marauder]

I am about to install an insight strikefinder I've had on my shelf for a while now.  While I'm under the plane, I plan to remove an old narcomatic teardrop bulb that protrudes from the bottom of the tailcone between the battery and strobe.  I had the ADF unit pulled a few years ago, but the guy just snipped the wire and left the antenna..  Anyway, after reading up on the technology that was used to build the strikefinder, it seems that the the sensor is little more than a 360 degree ADF antenna. 
So, my question is, if the narcomatic sensor was installed in a location which seems to have required some amount of 'quite' area of the skin, would it be reasonable that the strikefinder sensor could be installed directly where there narcomatic is rather than have to patch up the 2" hole that will be there after removing it?
Thank you very much antenna gurus

You’ll need to have a skin mapping done to find the right location to install the antenna. Avionics shops will be able to do this. There is a fair of potential interference possible from anything near the location (Com antenna, belly strobe, wiring under the skin, etc.)

Here is a video of interference caused on my plane by the belly mounted strobe. Fortunately I was able to buy an RF filtering lens for the strobe that eliminated the interference.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

[Browncbr1]

2 hours ago, Marauder said:

 

You’ll need to have a skin mapping done to find the right location to install the antenna. Avionics shops will be able to do this. There is a fair of potential interference possible from anything near the location (Com antenna, belly strobe, wiring under the skin, etc.)

Here is a video of interference caused on my plane by the belly mounted strobe. Fortunately I was able to buy an RF filtering lens for the strobe that eliminated the interference.

 

 

 

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

 

Do you mean a ferrite choke?  Or a lense that goes over the bulb?   

I had read the install manual and understand about skin mapping.   I spoke to insight and they said most installers just hook it up and move it around the belly externally in dealer mode until the lowest value is found, as not many installers have the skin mapping equipment.   

I guess my question comes up because I need to buy a new sensor cable.   The standard length is 18'.    Probably plenty, as the F model is 24' tip of cone to tip of tail, but they only offer 4' increments.   Just thought I would see what the community thinks about the narcomatic location.    

ill measure the exact distance from the battery and strobe and see if I can figure out a way to measure rf noise.   I already wired a 6" harness to make sure everything works and no fault codes  I may use the actual unit to "map" the area

 

[Marauder]

Do you mean a ferrite choke?  Or a lense that goes over the bulb?   
I had read the install manual and understand about skin mapping.   I spoke to insight and they said most installers just hook it up and move it around the belly externally in dealer mode until the lowest value is found, as not many installers have the skin mapping equipment.   
I guess my question comes up because I need to buy a new sensor cable.   The standard length is 18'.    Probably plenty, as the F model is 24' tip of cone to tip of tail, but they only offer 4' increments.   Just thought I would see what the community thinks about the narcomatic location.    
ill measure the exact distance from the battery and strobe and see if I can figure out a way to measure rf noise.   I already wired a 6" harness to make sure everything works and no fault codes  I may use the actual unit to "map" the area
 

The strobe filter was an actual replacement lens for the strobe. Since this video I updated my plane to LEDs, including the belly beacon. Sold the strobe to kpaul. Not sure if he has a StormScope on his plane.

The skin mapping will help eliminate the interference. The interference may be intermittent (like if you key the mike to transmit) or the transponder interrogation reply. Whatever you do, before I permanently mount it, I would check out everything electronic in the plane for possible interference. I got lucky with the strobe cover. I had been trying to figure out why I was getting these false hits. Since the WX-500 is heading stabilized, I was dodging false positives.


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[Browncbr1]

After looking at the G5/GAD29b install manual, I'm uncertain if it does or doesn't provide xyz bootstrap synchro that could heading stabilize the strikefinder.  I can imagine that the ghosts would be more of an issue if the unit is heading stabilized.  

Definitely going to figure out a good spot for the sensor in any case.

[N201MKTurbo]

40 minutes ago, Browncbr1 said:

After looking at the G5/GAD29b install manual, I'm uncertain if it does or doesn't provide xyz bootstrap synchro that could heading stabilize the strikefinder.  I can imagine that the ghosts would be more of an issue if the unit is heading stabilized.  

Definitely going to figure out a good spot for the sensor in any case.

You have an actual GAD29B install manual? I've been looking for one for a while. Are they out now?

[N201MKTurbo]

34 minutes ago, N201MKTurbo said:

You have an actual GAD29B install manual? I've been looking for one for a while. Are they out now?

I just read the install manual. The GAD29B is the same size as the existing one (Yahoo) and it looks like I just have to add additional pins to the connector (Yahoo) 

Now if it would just show up, I ordered it 3 months ago. I'll have to bug my avionics guy.

[Browncbr1]

1 hour ago, N201MKTurbo said:

You have an actual GAD29B install manual? I've been looking for one for a while. Are they out now?

Yes, revision 9 is out for the G5 which includes the gad29b

[laytonl]

I installed a strike finder in my son’s Piper Warrior a few years ago and I placed the antenna in the add spot.  It works great.  I put a wx-10 stormscope in my previous m20j and mounted it pretty far back to stay away from the trim motor.  It worked fine too.  The striker finder is an easier install.  Lee

[laytonl]

That’s ADF spot.  iPad tries to correct my spelling, which is generally a good thing.

[Bob_Belville]

3 minutes ago, laytonl said:

That’s ADF spot.  iPad tries to correct my spelling, which is generally a good thing.

Hi Lee, when I make a typo, about 2 out of every 3 posts, I use the "edit" button to cover my tracks. 

[Browncbr1]

12 hours ago, laytonl said:

That’s ADF spot.  iPad tries to correct my spelling, which is generally a good thing.

Thanks for your actual experience advice Lee.  I am planning on doing just that currently.  I have manual gear and trim, so mainly just need to keep back enough from the strobe, which seems to be ample by placing at the old ADF location. 

[DXB]

On 11/14/2017 at 10:51 AM, Browncbr1 said:

Thanks for your actual experience advice Lee.  I am planning on doing just that currently.  I have manual gear and trim, so mainly just need to keep back enough from the strobe, which seems to be ample by placing at the old ADF location. 

I'm curious if you'd share your experience with the Strikefinder, including hours labor, and any pitfalls with the install or afterwards.  I am leaning toward a Strikefinder over a wx-500 stormscope with the next trip to the avionics shop after my IR is complete.  I like the lower hardware price, lighter weight, reportedly quicker install of the the Strikefinder, and I have enough panel space for the indicator in my line of sight. Do you have the display slaved to keep the heading up? I'd need to slave to my Aspen HSI. 

But I've heard the Wx-500 may be more durable and trouble free.  I would likely display it on the HSI of my single panel Aspen pfd, and I'm wondering if that will be too cluttered. 

[Browncbr1]

22 minutes ago, DXB said:

I'm curious if you'd share your experience with the Strikefinder, including hours labor, and any pitfalls with the install or afterwards.  I am leaning toward a Strikefinder over a wx-500 stormscope with the next trip to the avionics shop after my IR is complete.  I like the lower hardware price, lighter weight, reportedly quicker install of the the Strikefinder, and I have enough panel space for the indicator in my line of sight. Do you have the display slaved to keep the heading up? I'd need to slave to my Aspen HSI. 

But I've heard the Wx-500 may be more durable and trouble free.  I would likely display it on the HSI of my single panel Aspen pfd, and I'm wondering if that will be too cluttered. 

I would have gotten a wx500 if the market price weren’t so high and more complicated install.  I bought the strikefinder display and sensor for $275 and ordered a new cable from insight for around $200 it I recall.  Can’t remember exact cost, but they threw in a new sensor mount kit, which is just two screws and a piece of 1/8” Eva foam and 2 screws.  Connector comes with cable.  Add a $20 circuit breaker and you’re good to go.  I Went with the strikefinder because it is super simple install.

I simply removed the old add narcomatic bulb that was still hanging on there and put the strikefinder sensor in the same hole.  I was going to do it myself, but I got lazy and just let the avionics shop install it while it was already open for panel work.  They added $500 to my bill, which I thought was high, based on the instructions I gave them.  I told them don’t bother with skin mapping or anything, but they gave me a good deal on all the other stuff so I didn’t care about the $500.  There was a lot of noise because they ran the sensor cable right by the battery and zip tied to battery cables.  I was surprised by that, and knew there would be noise before even flying it.  There was no noise on the 50mile setting, but there was on longer distances.  A reroute if the cable took care of most of it. 

I don’t have heading stabilization, but have been on the lookout for the heading module that clips on the back.  I haven’t flown IFR since picking it up in January.  I think one of these together with adsb will be enough to make conservative decisions.   Next time there is a TS in the area that isn’t embedded, I’ll try and fly and see how it works in real world   

The guy selling one on here for $600 with cable seems like a reasonable buy if you’re going to install it on your own.    I don’t know if I’d do it if having a shop install unless you are a hardcore IFR flyer.  All that money could pay for many years of XM marine service, which includes lightening and a few other things adsb doesn’t, though not real time.  

[Marauder]

20 minutes ago, Browncbr1 said:

I would have gotten a wx500 if the market price weren’t so high and more complicated install.  I bought the strikefinder display and sensor for $275 and ordered a new cable from insight for around $200 it I recall.  Can’t remember exact cost, but they threw in a new sensor mount kit, which is just two screws and a piece of 1/8” Eva foam and 2 screws.  Connector comes with cable.  Add a $20 circuit breaker and you’re good to go.  I Went with the strikefinder because it is super simple install.

I simply removed the old add narcomatic bulb that was still hanging on there and put the strikefinder sensor in the same hole.  I was going to do it myself, but I got lazy and just let the avionics shop install it while it was already open for panel work.  They added $500 to my bill, which I thought was high, based on the instructions I gave them.  I told them don’t bother with skin mapping or anything, but they gave me a good deal on all the other stuff so I didn’t care about the $500.  There was a lot of noise because they ran the sensor cable right by the battery and zip tied to battery cables.  I was surprised by that, and knew there would be noise before even flying it.  There was no noise on the 50mile setting, but there was on longer distances.  A reroute if the cable took care of most of it. 

I don’t have heading stabilization, but have been on the lookout for the heading module that clips on the back.  I haven’t flown IFR since picking it up in January.  I think one of these together with adsb will be enough to make conservative decisions.   Next time there is a TS in the area that isn’t embedded, I’ll try and fly and see how it works in real world   

The guy selling one on here for $600 with cable seems like a reasonable buy if you’re going to install it on your own.    I don’t know if I’d do it if having a shop install unless you are a hardcore IFR flyer.  All that money could pay for many years of XM marine service, which includes lightening and a few other things adsb doesn’t, though not real time.  

I have flown with a StormScope since the early 90s. The newer technology is much improved over their predecessors. As for skin mapping, I think it is an important step because it checks for those interferences likely to happen. But it needs to be done correctly. When I had my WX-500 installed, the skin was supposedly mapped. It still resulted in a false detection. I was finally able to determine it was caused by the strobe beacon. Fortunately Whelen had a solution (an Rf filtering lense). Here is a video of the interference. The heading is synchronized so the false positives are staying where they occured. If you can't trust the data, you will not likely use it.

I am not too familiar with the Strike Finder, but I know Insight products (owned a GEM) and they make good stuff. What I like about the new StormScope technologies is the improved treatment of radial spread and the ability to go between strike and cell mode. You will always pick up some random hits in strike mode. The cell mode improves on this by using logic to calculate the rates of hits to determine if it is indeed a cell.

 

[DXB]

6 hours ago, Browncbr1 said:

I would have gotten a wx500 if the market price weren’t so high and more complicated install.  I bought the strikefinder display and sensor for $275 and ordered a new cable from insight for around $200 it I recall.  Can’t remember exact cost, but they threw in a new sensor mount kit, which is just two screws and a piece of 1/8” Eva foam and 2 screws.  Connector comes with cable.  Add a $20 circuit breaker and you’re good to go.  I Went with the strikefinder because it is super simple install.

I simply removed the old add narcomatic bulb that was still hanging on there and put the strikefinder sensor in the same hole.  I was going to do it myself, but I got lazy and just let the avionics shop install it while it was already open for panel work.  They added $500 to my bill, which I thought was high, based on the instructions I gave them.  I told them don’t bother with skin mapping or anything, but they gave me a good deal on all the other stuff so I didn’t care about the $500.  There was a lot of noise because they ran the sensor cable right by the battery and zip tied to battery cables.  I was surprised by that, and knew there would be noise before even flying it.  There was no noise on the 50mile setting, but there was on longer distances.  A reroute if the cable took care of most of it. 

I don’t have heading stabilization, but have been on the lookout for the heading module that clips on the back.  I haven’t flown IFR since picking it up in January.  I think one of these together with adsb will be enough to make conservative decisions.   Next time there is a TS in the area that isn’t embedded, I’ll try and fly and see how it works in real world   

The guy selling one on here for $600 with cable seems like a reasonable buy if you’re going to install it on your own.    I don’t know if I’d do it if having a shop install unless you are a hardcore IFR flyer.  All that money could pay for many years of XM marine service, which includes lightening and a few other things adsb doesn’t, though not real time.  

Helpful perspective, thank you. I'm hoping having it will let me grow into hard core IFR over time, though I'm in no rush.