67F my landing technique as a student pilot

[Bob - S50]

4 minutes ago, gsxrpilot said:

Yep, that's perfectly normal and correct to ask for specific information from another known aircraft in the pattern. But it's unbelievable that you still hear pilots today call in with something like... "Cirrus 1234, 5 miles east of Centerville for landing, all aircraft in the area please advise"  I heard it twice just last week flying around central Texas.

Old habits die hard.

[donkaye, MCFI]

No patience to read any of the above.  This is the way to do the pattern for the M20F from 23 years of flight instructing in Mooneys.  Get my video for more demonstrations.

Don Kaye, Master Flight Instructor

 

Traffic pattern M20F.pdf

[Yetti]

I do the full calls was making it shorter for the internet. "Mooney xxY  Turning ___  runway 16 left."

 

[Andy95W]

1 hour ago, gsxrpilot said:

Just don't be the knucklehead who gets on the radio and asks other aircraft in the area to "please advise."

If it's not busy, I answer that call by saying, "Sure, what do you need advice about?"

[Hank]

3 hours ago, gsxrpilot said:

Just don't be the knucklehead who gets on the radio and asks other aircraft in the area to "please advise."

One a**h*le did that to me one evening at sunset as I was departing Runway 8 with my CFII. Sh*thead made the call 1 mile east . . . I answered back, "Mooney 4DJ departing Lawrence County over the trees, I hope you're not in front of me!" with obvious frustration in my voice, and 4 eyes staring intently through the windshield. Saw the Cezzna about 1/2 nm from the departure end, crossed halfway from the southeast to the downwind leg as I climbed by . . . .

Sh*theads are everywhere, keep a sharp lookout! But as an Instrument student, it sadly wasn't possible to make closed pattern and continue the discussion on the ground while the (female) airline pilot / CFII watched. Or helped out, who knows, right?

[jaylw314]

On ‎10‎/‎24‎/‎2017 at 11:07 AM, Shadrach said:

One time when practicing an engine failure in the pattern I left the gear up to stretch my glide to make the runway.  I was distracted while maneuvering by several erroneous calls made by the tower. I recognized the gear were still up on final, but late enough to freak me out.  It is entirely possible to end up in a scenario where the gear horn becomes another background noise.  It's not easy, but possible.

I recall a youtube video of a gear up landing in France where both the pilot and his pilot passenger proceeded with the gear up alarm blaring in the background for the better part of a minute.  I'm sure someone can find it, but it's a little terrifying to watch.

[jaylw314]

On ‎10‎/‎24‎/‎2017 at 3:19 PM, Grandmas Flying Couch said:

I have done the power chopped abeam, it worked out fine, in-fact, maybe better than my normal approach.  Lol.  I will start getting the feelers out for a new CFI, first let me ask him to cool it.  I can fly the plane fine, I just need him to relax.  I love my solo time since, I can deviate 3 or 4 seconds without getting an earful. 

Perhaps it would be tactful to ask if he'd be willing to allow you to fly a couple turns in the pattern without saying anything, and then give you feedback once you are back on the ground.  Explain that the immediate feedback is difficult to remember and reinforce, and that putting it all together at the end might help you retain it better.

His response will probably give you a very clear idea as to what to do with him.  If his response shows inflexibility and an inability to adapt, it may be better to put your training with him on hold sooner rather than later.  I suspect you are already pretty good with stick and rudder given your prior training, and a bad instructor can certainly make you worse.  On the other hand, if he responds positively or even says, "yeah, let's give that a try, I'm glad I thought of that," there might be something to salvage.

[EricJ]

16 minutes ago, jaylw314 said:

I recall a youtube video of a gear up landing in France where both the pilot and his pilot passenger proceeded with the gear up alarm blaring in the background for the better part of a minute.  I'm sure someone can find it, but it's a little terrifying to watch.

A Trinidad, with, I've heard, two multi-thousand-hour pilots in the front seats.

 

[Grandmas Flying Couch]

Thanks for all the advice, met with my instructor yesterday, he has calmed down alot, I went for a solo flight afterwards with the info gained from this thread, and have had 4 perfect landings, back at home base I had long roll out approved since my hanger is at the end of a 8500' runway.  I used the 80mph appraoach (1.3Vso ) full flaps and full up trim and adjust power for glide slope.  A foot above the runway, I got an itch from reading Don Kaye's website and added a little power and then a little more and kept her in ground effect at about 65 mph IAS all the way just short of my taxiway and then pulled power and she settled down.  

This is what I took from all the advise This is working perfectly:

I use 45 degree past abeam since it is not wind dependent vs time (I don't descend until turning base)

100-90-80 MPH in downwind, base, and especially on final. 

Full Flaps on final 

Adjust power and pitch as necessary for aiming point.  (Usually don't have to keep fiddling with this once stabilized)

Runway assured, power to idle make sure trim is all the way or nearly all the way back for easy flair.  

Plane slows to about 75 in the round out

Soft field landing, fly it down to runway, shortfield hold it off to full stall about 1 ft off.  

It's cake after all that, I know I could reduce speed more when light, but aircraft only floats for about 2-3 seconds as it. 

This is working perfectly and I can land shorter than most of the C172 students at both fields.  

 

 

[Grandmas Flying Couch]

Another one

 

[mooniac15u]

1 hour ago, Grandmas Flying Couch said:

Thanks for all the advice, met with my instructor yesterday, he has calmed down alot, I went for a solo flight afterwards with the info gained from this thread, and have had 4 perfect landings, back at home base I had long roll out approved since my hanger is at the end of a 8500' runway.  I used the 80mph appraoach (1.3Vso ) full flaps and full up trim and adjust power for glide slope.  A foot above the runway, I got an itch from reading Don Kaye's website and added a little power and then a little more and kept her in ground effect at about 65 mph IAS all the way just short of my taxiway and then pulled power and she settled down.  

This is what I took from all the advise This is working perfectly:

I use 45 degree past abeam since it is not wind dependent vs time (I don't descend until turning base)

100-90-80 MPH in downwind, base, and especially on final. 

Full Flaps on final 

Adjust power and pitch as necessary for aiming point.  (Usually don't have to keep fiddling with this once stabilized)

Runway assured, power to idle make sure trim is all the way or nearly all the way back for easy flair.  

Plane slows to about 75 in the round out

Soft field landing, fly it down to runway, shortfield hold it off to full stall about 1 ft off.  

It's cake after all that, I know I could reduce speed more when light, but aircraft only floats for about 2-3 seconds as it. 

This is working perfectly and I can land shorter than most of the C172 students at both fields.  

 

 

If you have full nose up trim on final and apply power to go around it can cause the nose to pitch up significantly. It can potentially be a dangerous situation if you aren't prepared for it. 

[Skates97]

1 hour ago, mooniac15u said:

If you have full nose up trim on final and apply power to go around it can cause the nose to pitch up significantly. It can potentially be a dangerous situation if you aren't prepared for it. 

Depending on weight I have to have full up nose trim on my 65C/D to be trimmed out for 80 mph hands off on final as @donkaye teaches. I have gone around a couple of times and while there is some tendency to pitch up when applying full power it is nothing that can't be handled. As you say, just be ready and know it's coming.

[Shadrach]

5 hours ago, Grandmas Flying Couch said:

Thanks for all the advice, met with my instructor yesterday, he has calmed down alot, I went for a solo flight afterwards with the info gained from this thread, and have had 4 perfect landings, back at home base I had long roll out approved since my hanger is at the end of a 8500' runway.  I used the 80mph appraoach (1.3Vso ) full flaps and full up trim and adjust power for glide slope.  A foot above the runway, I got an itch from reading Don Kaye's website and added a little power and then a little more and kept her in ground effect at about 65 mph IAS all the way just short of my taxiway and then pulled power and she settled down.  

This is what I took from all the advise This is working perfectly:

I use 45 degree past abeam since it is not wind dependent vs time (I don't descend until turning base)

100-90-80 MPH in downwind, base, and especially on final. 

Full Flaps on final 

Adjust power and pitch as necessary for aiming point.  (Usually don't have to keep fiddling with this once stabilized)

Runway assured, power to idle make sure trim is all the way or nearly all the way back for easy flair.  

Plane slows to about 75 in the round out

Soft field landing, fly it down to runway, shortfield hold it off to full stall about 1 ft off.  

It's cake after all that, I know I could reduce speed more when light, but aircraft only floats for about 2-3 seconds as it. 

This is working perfectly and I can land shorter than most of the C172 students at both fields.  

 

 

I too find myself with full aft trim when solo and lightly loaded.  Something to be aware of on a go around but not unmanageable.  I would add that a go around need not be a dramatic event unless avoiding moving objects that enter the runway (airport vehicles, animals, etc)... even then, be smooth,  be direct, be controlled.  Keeping a Mooney in the air is in many ways far easier than putting one on the ground.

Edited October 27, 2017 by Shadrach

[Yetti]

The one time you forget to reset the trim on takeoff you will learn about the quick pitch up.   Everyone does it.   Just fly the plane.

[mooniac15u]

Departure stalls on go-arounds have gotten low time pilots in many different types of aircraft.   The risk is real and more so in a Mooney than most trainers. Using less trim on short final helps mitigate that risk. 

[Grandmas Flying Couch]

4 hours ago, mooniac15u said:

If you have full nose up trim on final and apply power to go around it can cause the nose to pitch up significantly. It can potentially be a dangerous situation if you aren't prepared for it. 

 

2 hours ago, Skates97 said:

Depending on weight I have to have full up nose trim on my 65C/D to be trimmed out for 80 mph hands off on final as @donkaye teaches. I have gone around a couple of times and while there is some tendency to pitch up when applying full power it is nothing that can't be handled. As you say, just be ready and know it's coming.

 

1 hour ago, Shadrach said:

I too find myself with full aft trim when solo and lightly loaded.  Something to be aware of on a go around but not unmanageable.  I would add that a go around need not be a dramatic event unless avoiding moving objects that enter the runway (airport vehicles, animals, etc)... even then, be smooth,  be direct, be controlled.  Keeping a Mooney in the air is in many ways takes far easier than putting one on the ground.

 

59 minutes ago, Yetti said:

The one time you forget to reset the trim on takeoff you will learn about the quick pitch up.   Everyone does it.   Just fly the plane.

 

56 minutes ago, mooniac15u said:

Departure stalls on go-arounds have gotten low time pilots in many different types of aircraft.   The risk is real and more so in a Mooney than most trainers. Using less trim on short final helps mitigate that risk. 

I am aware of the go-around, I do tons of touch and gos Trim wheel like crazy, raise flaps to take off and hit the throttle.  I've also had a go around if I was approaching wayyyy to high, apply power while pushing forward on the yoke, continue holding forward on yoke trim like crazy, gear up pos rate, flaps up at about 95 (Flap speed 105). I'm 6'3" 225 and move 900 lb vending machines for a living, so pushing on the yoke is not too much trouble, I do like to hit the trim wheel a few times ASAP.  In-Fact this last weekend I opened up the jack screw panels and cleaned a ton of hard grease and scrubbed it clean.  Then Added new grease and had the girlfriend cycle the trim back all the way down and then back up, clean old grease that got pushed out and re-apply new, for about 10-12 cycles until grease ran opaque (old stuff was black).  I owe her a nice diner.  I know it's better to remove the screw completely, but it will have to wait until annual.  This helped with the go around and touch and go.  

Thanks Again Guys!  

[Immelman]

5 hours ago, Grandmas Flying Couch said:

This is working perfectly and I can land shorter than most of the C172 students at both fields. 

That brings a smile to my face. Your taildragger experience is paying off.

And even more of a smile: your girlfriend helping you maintain your airplane. That's more like tear-worthy! Excellent.

I think you'll do just fine.

Edited October 27, 2017 by Immelman

[Shadrach]

5 minutes ago, Grandmas Flying Couch said:

 

 

 

 

I am aware of the go-around, I do tons of touch and gos Trim wheel like crazy, raise flaps to take off and hit the throttle.  I've also had a go around if I was approaching wayyyy to high, apply power while pushing forward on the yoke, continue holding forward on yoke trim like crazy, gear up pos rate, flaps up at about 95 (Flap speed 105). I'm 6'3" 225 and move 900 lb vending machines for a living, so pushing on the yoke is not too much trouble, I do like to hit the trim wheel a few times ASAP.  In-Fact this last weekend I opened up the jack screw panels and cleaned a ton of hard grease and scrubbed it clean.  Then Added new grease and had the girlfriend cycle the trim back all the way down and then back up, clean old grease that got pushed out and re-apply new, for about 10-12 cycles until grease ran opaque (old stuff was black).  I owe her a nice diner.  I know it's better to remove the screw completely, but it will have to wait until annual.  This helped with the go around and touch and go.  

Thanks Again Guys!  

If you're comfy with T&G, practicing them without dropping the nose is good for developing attitude and speed discipline.

 

[Grandmas Flying Couch]

18 minutes ago, Shadrach said:

If you're comfy with T&G, practicing them without dropping the nose is good for developing attitude and speed discipline.

 

I'm going to try this, also good soft field landing practice to keep that nose up.  

[Grandmas Flying Couch]

38 minutes ago, Immelman said:

That brings a smile to my face. Your taildragger experience is paying off.

And even more of a smile: your girlfriend helping you maintain your airplane. That's more like tear-worthy! Excellent.

I think you'll do just fine.

We've been together for 8 or 9 years, I'm waiting to get to know her before I pop the question.  We do everything together, she bought me my first RC plane for my birthday 3 years ago and they got bigger and more expensive every year until it was a 1967 M20F.  

We bought and restored a couple of jetskis, lifted our pathfinder for off-roading,  We go shooting together, she's definitely awesome.  We have matching MTN bikes, and soon we will buy folding bikes for the Mooney and go travel!  It's been a great time.  Her and I own a business together too!  Hard working woman!  Wouldn't trade her, even for an updated panel, new interior, paint job, an Stec 30 with GPSS, and 201 Windshield.  

[Immelman]

Careful, Shadrach, your T&G video will soon ignite the peanut gallery claiming that it must be a fake since your clearly dangerous maneuver didn't result in a gear-up landing.

Side note, I gave some instruction to a friend (an aspiring pro pilot working on his commercial) and had him do his first Mooney landings as T&Gs on grass, keeping the nosewheel off. He did great. We came back to the pavement and he landed beautifully....

Grandmas  Couch - she sounds like a keeper!!

Edited October 27, 2017 by Immelman

[Skates97]

14 minutes ago, Grandmas Flying Couch said:

We've been together for 8 or 9 years, I'm waiting to get to know her before I pop the question.  We do everything together, she bought me my first RC plane for my birthday 3 years ago and they got bigger and more expensive every year until it was a 1967 M20F.  

We bought and restored a couple of jetskis, lifted our pathfinder for off-roading,  We go shooting together, she's definitely awesome.  We have matching MTN bikes, and soon we will buy folding bikes for the Mooney and go travel!  It's been a great time.  Her and I own a business together too!  Hard working woman!  Wouldn't trade her, even for an updated panel, new interior, paint job, an Stec 30 with GPSS, and 201 Windshield.  

Ummm.... What else are you waiting to find out about? Sounds like you've covered most of it. 

[Yetti]

And you will also want to do the whole driveline for the trim. Shoot Triflow into each of the u joints.  Then follow up with Grease.  Clean the chain by the trim wheel.   Some take it off, I just did the quicky chain bike lube with a brush and silicone spray and then tri flow.  Takes about 2 annuals of lubing. 

[Shadrach]

22 hours ago, Immelman said:

Careful, Shadrach, your T&G video will soon ignite the peanut gallery claiming that it must be a fake since your clearly dangerous maneuver didn't result in a gear-up landing.

Side note, I gave some instruction to a friend (an aspiring pro pilot working on his commercial) and had him do his first Mooney landings as T&Gs on grass, keeping the nosewheel off. He did great. We came back to the pavement and he landed beautifully....

Grandmas  Couch - she sounds like a keeper!!

I also had the audacity to leave the flaps all the way out in the climb!