Gear Doughnuts

[Guest]

Not to argue about the price, but....

[RobertGary1]

A local motorcycle shop here will match online prices if you include the cost of next day shipping since he's providing the part right away. That seems reasonable.

-Robert

[Hank]

29 minutes ago, M20Doc said:

Not to argue about the price, but....

Isn't  $24.50 Canadian equal to $20 US?

[Guest]

1 minute ago, Hank said:

Isn't  $24.50 Canadian equal to $20 US?

Hank,

That price is from the .com site not the .ca site so it is in US dollars.  But yes that exchange rate would be close.

Clarence

[LANCECASPER]

Maybe he was thinking Tempest

[mike_elliott]

On ‎9‎/‎11‎/‎2017 at 9:34 AM, M20Doc said:

Steak and potatoes are cheaper at the grocery store.  I have yet to find a restaurant who will only charge me for cooking them.

Clarence

Very common in Fl. for the restaurants to cook the fish you just caught and provide, however it is bad form to ask your IA to assume liabilities, warranties and fitness for a particular purpose for owner provided parts, even though they may be the same as what he would have supplied for 20% more than you can get them for. If he is "robbing" you,  then you have to ask yourself if he is the guy you want caring for your life. You should have a vested interest in the IA's well being just as he has a vested interest in yours.

[Sabremech]

I only hope that those who complain about the price of airplane parts and A&P/IA labor rates, try to be as cheap with their Mercedes or Porsche mechanics. 

My knowledge and signature aren't cheap and never will be with as much as I've invested in my career. I suspect Clarence feels the same way. 

[peevee]

36 minutes ago, Sabremech said:

I only hope that those who complain about the price of airplane parts and A&P/IA labor rates, try to be as cheap with their Mercedes or Porsche mechanics. 

My knowledge and signature aren't cheap and never will be with as much as I've invested in my career. I suspect Clarence feels the same way. 

The funny thing is I think our a&p charges 80/hr. Good luck finding a dealer mechanic anywhere near that cheap

[jetdriven]

My car simply never goes to the dealer.  Its a BMW

[RLCarter]

The cost for aviation parts is way over priced due to product liability and certification costs which leaves little room for profit. OEM automotive and motorcycle parts have a 100% markup over dealer cost and there is generally a matrix added to that, aftermarket items have a 30~40% markup, your local A&P is lucky if he can average a 10% discount from retail. When I had my Motorcycle shop the labor rate was $60.00hr and my A&P was at $45.00hr (he's now at 60). I honestly don't see how an independent A&P\IA can afford to have a large inventory of parts on hand, I know I wouldn't if I was one. I assume a seasoned A&P has around $40k wrapped up in hand tools and at least that in specialized shop equipment so don't complain to loud, he has a lot invested in education, money and time keeping you from falling out of the sky. Short story, I had a Doctor bring in his 3-wheeler in for tires back in the early 80's, I told him lets go up front and check prices so I could give him a heads up on the work requested, he said he didnt need an estimate and to call him when it was ready, back then you could only get the tires from a dealer, roughly $100.00 bucks a pop, so 3 tires plus labor & tax was pushing $400.00 on a 3-wheel that sold for grand when it was brand new. When the Doc came in to pick it up I slid the repair order across the counter as I gave him the total verbally, he stumbled and stuttered and said I'm a doctor and don't make that kind of money, which I replied neither did I when I was a doctor, will that be cash, check or credit card...

[Guest]

7 hours ago, peevee said:

The funny thing is I think our a&p charges 80/hr. Good luck finding a dealer mechanic anywhere near that cheap

I wonder how many would be flying if the shop rates were raised to automotive dealer rates with parts mark up to match?

Clarence

[Andy95W]

2 hours ago, M20Doc said:

I wonder how many would be flying if the shop rates were raised to automotive dealer rates with parts mark up to match?

Clarence

This brings up one of my biggest pet peeves in Aviation.  I first saw it working as a mechanic's helper in central Texas about 25 years ago (my first job in aviation).  I saw a guy pull up in a new Mercedes and proceed to argue about every nut, bolt, washer and fitting we used to install his overhauled engine.  The total was less than $50.  But you know when he took that fancy Mercedes to the dealer, he just stroked a check and didn't question a dime.  And our shop rate was half the Mercedes rate.

[N6758N]

 

26 minutes ago, Andy95W said:

This brings up one of my biggest pet peeves in Aviation.  I first saw it working as a mechanic's helper in central Texas about 25 years ago (my first job in aviation).  I saw a guy pull up in a new Mercedes and proceed to argue about every nut, bolt, washer and fitting we used to install his overhauled engine.  The total was less than $50.  But you know when he took that fancy Mercedes to the dealer, he just stroked a check and didn't question a dime.  And our shop rate was half the Mercedes rate.

That sounds about right. It's great that a pilot may be able to purchase a part for less than I will charge, however he has not spent the years or time on training and invested tens of thousands of dollars into tools and equipment to install said part. Not to mention the liability I take every time I sign my name in their logbooks. Most shops don't make a lot of money on markup of parts anyways. The average discount aircraft spruce gives dealers is ~5% depending on what it is. 

I once had a customer with a Seneca ask me to quote an oil change for the airplane. He was quite shocked by the price and asked why it was so high. So I started explaining, two cases of oil, two filters, etc. He seemed to understand that but then he asked why it was two hours of labor versus one. So again I explained that two engines was twice the labor (or more) of one engine. He proceeded to stand there and argue with me for 10 minutes about how it should not cost any more labor to do the oil change on a twin vs. a single. He told me I could work on one engine while the other was draining oil...It's people like this that are the reason I'm in the midst of changing careers. I'll just stick to flying them. 

[steingar]

Comparing an aviation mechanic to a medical professional is truly apples and oranges.  You can get the A&P with two years of school or I think three of experience (please do correct me if I'm wrong on the latter).  Any medical degree takes four years of specialized training on top of a four year college degree.  Anyone can get the A&P, but you have to be smart enough to get into medical or dental school, and the competition is nuts.  And if you think A&Ps invest heavily in their shops, think about the stuff a doctor or dentist has to buy.  The ones I truly feel sorry for are veterinarians.  They must undergo all the school an MD does, have to compete to get into the very expensive professional school, and have to completely equip an office including surgical suite.  And they can only charge a fraction of what an MD can since there's little insurance.

[PTK]

21 hours ago, M20Doc said:

I stock a complete set at all times and charge accordingly.

Do you mark up crowns and custom implants which are made to order and are not in your inventory or pass them on at cost?

Clarence

Clarence, it's not a good analogy because you can't buy an implant or a crown and go to your dentist to put it in your mouth.

But to answer your question, for implants and components we only charge cost to the patient. For crowns we only charge lab fees. So patient pays my fee separate. We don't mark up "parts."

[1964-M20E]

Everyone in business needs to make money or else they will not be in business for long.

I am confident in my mechanical abilities and many times all I need from the mechanic is a signature and log book entry and I'm willing to pay for that no problem.  I need the mechanic for that purpose.  I've had my mechanic at the end of an annual ask why she was there?  My response your signature.

I once payed $675 for a nose wheel tire and tube but I was not at home it was a Saturday or Sunday afternoon and the mechanic was already there (no call out) and he had the tire and tube available.  I was flying again in a little more than an hour.  Was it high especially for something I could have done legally myself?  Yes but he was johnny on the spot and I didn't have to do a lot of coordination to get a tire and tube to my location.

I've paid my mechanic more that the invoice before because I felt that there was more done than charged and other times just what the invoice stated.

[Guest]

2 hours ago, steingar said:

Comparing an aviation mechanic to a medical professional is truly apples and oranges.  You can get the A&P with two years of school or I think three of experience (please do correct me if I'm wrong on the latter).  Any medical degree takes four years of specialized training on top of a four year college degree.  Anyone can get the A&P, but you have to be smart enough to get into medical or dental school, and the competition is nuts.  And if you think A&Ps invest heavily in their shops, think about the stuff a doctor or dentist has to buy.  The ones I truly feel sorry for are veterinarians.  They must undergo all the school an MD does, have to compete to get into the very expensive professional school, and have to completely equip an office including surgical suite.  And they can only charge a fraction of what an MD can since there's little insurance.

If you die while undergoing a surgical procedure, it's part of th quoted risk, 1-3% chance of death 5-10% chance of a complication etc.  Your death won't make the national news.

If your maintenance guy quoted similar risks for annual inspections no one would fly and your death will make the national news.

Clarence

[RLCarter]

A retired proctologist decided he wanted to be a mechanic, after a few years of classes it was time for the final exam. The exam was straight forward, disassemble an engine, reassemble and it had run. After the instructor handed him his grade, he questioned how he scored so high, the instructor said 25 points for disassembly, 25 for assembly, 50 cause it started and ran, I gave you an additional 50 points for doing it all through the exhaust pipe

[Tommy]

20 hours ago, PTK said:

Aircraft Spruce sells it for 20$. They also have to ship it in, inspect it, warehouse it, and add a margin to be profitable.

I do expect the shop to charge a reasonable mark up. Not a 275%  mark up!

Is $55 for filter only or include labour? 

Aircraft Spruce has the economy of scale that small workshops have not. 

I do agree that as owner we should be able to supply our own parts especially on small items and able to produce relevant papers. My new mechanic has the similar policy until he realised that he doesn't stock Tempest Filter which I prefer. 

 

[RLCarter]

When I was in the motorcycle biz I would do what ever was necessary to resolve an issue on a part I sold, customer supplied parts was a different story, I didn't call in any favors from the supplier for a goodwill warranty 

[PTK]

2 hours ago, Tommy said:

Is $55 for filter only or include labour? 

Aircraft Spruce has the economy of scale that small workshops have not. 

I do agree that as owner we should be able to supply our own parts especially on small items and able to produce relevant papers. My new mechanic has the similar policy until he realised that he doesn't stock Tempest Filter which I prefer. 

 

Filter only. They wanted to charge 55$ for filter and 13$/qt for Aeroshell 15W50. Labor would be at their hourly rate. They did not stock Tempest which is what I use. They wanted to use Champion. Also that did not include clean and inspect the screen. If I wanted that it'd be extra! When I pressed them on the screen being part of the oil change they said that as per Lycoming that's done at annual! Which is incorrect.

[bradp]

As a doc who enjoys maintaining my aircraft, there are a lot of parallels between mechanics and doctors.   I typically have the same mindset and level of focus when I'm doing say - an oil change - as I have when I'm say - doing a procedure for a child.   Each done incorrectly or carelessly has a set of dire consequences.  We've seen the MIFs outlined in previous threads.  I'm happy to pay a fair price for competent work and more for excellent work.  But you don't need to go to the "Mayo Clinic" of A&Ps to find a good mechanic.   There are also $hit mechanics in huge fancy shops (or apprentices - kind of like the meds students of the mechnaic world). 

My latest mx mantra after being @&:$'d by a couple of big places in my short time as an aircraft owner.  Find an independent, local A&P who you trust and develop a relationship with them.  Treat them fairly and pay them for what they do and it will pay dividends in the long run.  

[MARZ]

So my mechanic and I replaced my shock disks, pictures of old vs new on the bench shows about a quarter inch difference in height but that's not the real story.  Under load, the old vs new stack difference was three quarters of an inch. All in all four hours well spent. 

[Steelstring]

Looks good!

Where did you end up purchasing the discs?  Were you able to beat the $106?

 

[TWinter]

Interested in hearing where the best deal is now a days. If I make my normal annual time frame I might go ahead and have mine replaced. I think mine are 90s era, don't remember the stamp date of top of my head.

 

-Tom