Garmin G-5 to control autopilots!!

[ArtVandelay]

58 minutes ago, KSMooniac said:

Legacy servos aren't waterproof, and they're not exposed to rain unless you have something wrong with your plane!

 

From Garmin announcement:

"The design of the GFC 600  includes environmentally hardened servos, allowing for installation in a wide range of airframes, including harsh operating conditions."

[KSMooniac]

I bet we'll all get the 500, because if we don't, Trio and TruTrak are close to delivering their products at similar or lower prices than the 500. Garmin knows this.

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[KSMooniac]

Environmentally hardened has more to do with protecting against EMI, lightning, and similar hazards. The existence of those servos means nothing with regards to whether a Mooney requires those, or not. There is no reason to automatically assume we can't or won't be allowed to install a GFC500 or a Trio or a TruTrak.

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[N6758N]

5 minutes ago, KSMooniac said:

I bet we'll all get the 500, because if we don't, Trio and TruTrak are close to delivering their products at similar or lower prices than the 500. Garmin knows this.

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Especially when you consider the base price of the GFC500 system is $2k more than the TruTrak.

[gsengle]

I bet we'll all get the 500, because if we don't, Trio and TruTrak are close to delivering their products at similar or lower prices than the 500. Garmin knows this.

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We shall see....


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[KSMooniac]

We shall see....


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Pretty soon, too.

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[KSMooniac]

One last comment...for those so beaten by certified prices that are expecting the worst...keep in mind these "cheap" G5 units we're now allowed to install are already 80% more expensive than the experimental versions, with less capability. Garmin is going to squeeze as much as they can from our market, but there is certainly a price ceiling and fortunately it is now much lower than it was 2 months ago.

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[ArtVandelay]

1 minute ago, KSMooniac said:

Environmentally hardened has more to do with protecting against EMI, lightning, and similar hazards. The existence of those servos means nothing with regards to whether a Mooney requires those, or not. There is no reason to automatically assume we can't or won't be allowed to install a GFC500 or a Trio or a TruTrak.
 

Right now all we have to go by is this: "The GFC 600 autopilot is intended for high performance piston single/twin-engine and turbine aircraft that have a wide range of aircraft speed and performance characteristics, while the GFC 500 is intended for less complex piston single-engine aircraft" An A36 apparently is a high performance piston single. They  also used that phrase for the G2000, which is installed on the TTx which also added FIKI.

Jetaviva uses this definition for the following: T182T, T206H, Bonanza G36, and the Cirrus SR22T

Trio and TruTrak have no history in the certified market. But we've been here before: Avidyne DFC90, which still limits support for 182, Cirrus, Bonanza PA-46, hasn't added Mooney. So based on this I don't think we'll see Mooney supported, until C, B, and P brands are. 

 

[aviatoreb]

35 minutes ago, KSMooniac said:

Environmentally hardened has more to do with protecting against EMI, lightning, and similar hazards. The existence of those servos means nothing with regards to whether a Mooney requires those, or not. There is no reason to automatically assume we can't or won't be allowed to install a GFC500 or a Trio or a TruTrak.

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Exactly - the danger is to Garmin loosing the majority of the M20 business - they will know that if they try and force all of us to pay 20k for a GFC600 and the matching required G500 - another 25k plus install...there will be VASTLY fewer M20's buying the garmin product, and so we will be fine, we will buy trutrek, trio, or Dynon. This time the market place of choices and economics are on our side.  Eat it up Garmin!

That said - Garmin has a feature that none of the others have, that I very much want - which is envelope protection that is active even when hand flying.  And I also want straight and level button.

But those other 3 would get my money if....

[N6758N]

14 minutes ago, aviatoreb said:

Exactly - the danger is to Garmin loosing the majority of the M20 business - they will know that if they try and force all of us to pay 20k for a GFC600 and the matching required G500 - another 25k plus install...there will be VASTLY fewer M20's buying the garmin product, and so we will be fine, we will buy trutrek, trio, or Dynon. This time the market place of choices and economics are on our side.  Eat it up Garmin!

That said - Garmin has a feature that none of the others have, that I very much want - which is envelope protection that is active even when hand flying.  And I also want straight and level button.

But those other 3 would get my money if....

Erik,

The TruTrak Vizion system has both the emergency level feature and the angle bank protection which is similar to the envelope protection. I thought I saw it also had speed envelope protection as well. 

[mike_elliott]

1 hour ago, gsengle said:

 

 

And the danger there is we all get pushed to the 600. Or they do the 500 first figuring that the market is more limited for fiki/hp airframes and we get left until much later.


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That shouldn't be a danger, as TruTrac and others (even BK in year 2xxx) will have a cheaper alternative thus making the G600 moot for Mooney's. Garmin is smart enough to realize getting a large % of the Mooney market for the G500 is better than getting 0-1% of the Mooney market for their g600

 

[LANCECASPER]

I think it’s “what the market will bear”. The newer more expensive airframes (M, R, S, TN, U, V) will get the GFC600 and the older ones will get the GFC500. Garmin usually doesn’t leave any money on the table. 

[gsengle]

That shouldn't be a danger, as TruTrac and others (even BK in year 2xxx) will have a cheaper alternative thus making the G600 moot for Mooney's. Garmin is smart enough to realize getting a large % of the Mooney market for the G500 is better than getting 0-1% of the Mooney market for their g600
 

You watch they'll exclude fiki Mooneys from the stc.


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[MIm20c]

3 hours ago, KSMooniac said:

I If FIKI were an issue, it would certainly show up in the limitations section.

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The first line under the limitations (2.1) specifies no FIKI installs for the G5. I'm not sure how the 500 could legally be installed without the G5. 

I'm curious what the installed price difference will be between the 500 and 600.  

[kevinw]

I was just reading the November issue of the aviation consumer and there's a story on the GFC500/600. The 500 is about $14K plus install and that includes the pitch trim option. The 600 is about $24K plus install and that also includes the pitch trim. There was no estimate of labor involved, only that as you add options such as auto trim and yaw damper the installation cost naturally increases. The article read both units performed very well. What I don't like is the G5 is required with the GFC500 but third party PFDs like the Aspen will interface with the GFC600. So basically I would have to remove my Aspen PFD if I wanted to install the GFC500.

[KSMooniac]

The first line under the limitations (2.1) specifies no FIKI installs for the G5. I'm not sure how the 500 could legally be installed without the G5. 
I'm curious what the installed price difference will be between the 500 and 600.  

I stand corrected. The G5 AHRS provides the reference for the GFC500, while the 600 has a built-in AHRS. I suspect the installation manual will be updated shortly because the limitations section also says it cannot replace an HSI that is part of an autopilot system, and that has changed with the GAD29B. It would be interesting to see if the FIKI language is removed. The STC AML document didn't have those limitations noted. It does say the G5 cannot be installed in aircraft with G500 or G1000 systems.

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[ArtVandelay]

I was just reading the November issue of the aviation consumer and there's a story on the GFC500/600. The 500 is about $14K plus install and that includes the pitch trim option. The 600 is about $24K plus install and that also includes the pitch trim. There was no estimate of labor involved, only that as you add options such as auto trim and yaw damper the installation cost naturally increases. The article read both units performed very well. What I don't like is the G5 is required with the GFC500 but third party PFDs like the Aspen will interface with the GFC600. So basically I would have to remove my Aspen PFD if I wanted to install the GFC500.

Where did they get the $14K from? Are they including the G5?

 

 

So 2 servos version is $5500 in parts, I'm going to guess $4500 in labor for $10K all in. Another $500 gets you the auto trim, shame they can't use existing servos.

[Philip]

17 hours ago, teejayevans said:

Did you get an estimate? I'm still waiting for a response.

$9100

[kevinw]

12 hours ago, teejayevans said:

Where did they get the $14K from? Are they including the G5?

 

 

So 2 servos version is $5500 in parts, I'm going to guess $4500 in labor for $10K all in. Another $500 gets you the auto trim, shame they can't use existing servos.

According to the article, the 500 has a base price of $6,995. The primary AI is $2,149 and the G5 heading indicator is $2,449. If you want pitch trim that is $2,100 and the yaw damper is $1,500. Base price of the 600 is $19,995 and $23,995 with electric pitch trim.

[aviatoreb]

45 minutes ago, kevinw said:

According to the article, the 500 has a base price of $6,995. The primary AI is $2,149 and the G5 heading indicator is $2,449. If you want pitch trim that is $2,100 and the yaw damper is $1,500. Base price of the 600 is $19,995 and $23,995 with electric pitch trim.

Plus if you are starting steam guage as many of us are, then that $14k is the complete parts cost for the GFC500 since it includes two G5's doesn't it?  But for the GFC600, then you need to add onto that $24k the cost of at least an aspen install, which is another 14k?  Or a G500 which is what, $22K?  So thats either 38k or 46k, Labor not included vs 14k labor not included.

[ArtVandelay]

According to the article, the 500 has a base price of $6,995. The primary AI is $2,149 and the G5 heading indicator is $2,449. If you want pitch trim that is $2,100 and the yaw damper is $1,500. Base price of the 600 is $19,995 and $23,995 with electric pitch trim.

It's only $500 more for the pitch trim if you get as part of the package, $2100 if you add it later, I'm guess most will go for it up front. Looking at that table I think it's wrong.

[bradp]

For those who are getting the "double the price of hardware" quotes - I did a G5 primary by myself and it was less than 10 hrs.  The GAD interface has a number of interconnects to RS-232, airinc 429 and your autopilot. Plus the magnetometer needs to be wired.  I'd think somewhere around 25 hours labor would be in the ballpark.  48 hrs labor is getting into G500 / Aspen territory ...

[kevinw]

What's interesting in the article is they flew a C172 with the GFC500 without electric trim or the yaw damper and they don't think either is necessary. The yaw damper may not be necessary but I think the electric trim is a must. Why invest that much money in an AP and have to trim it manually?

[bradp]

For those with non autopilot based electric trim systems how do these trim servos interface with those types of trim systems ? 

[Oldguy]

1 hour ago, kevinw said:

According to the article, the 500 has a base price of $6,995. The primary AI is $2,149 and the G5 heading indicator is $2,449. If you want pitch trim that is $2,100 and the yaw damper is $1,500. Base price of the 600 is $19,995 and $23,995 with electric pitch trim.

For the GFC 500, I see it as 2 GS 28 servos @ $1,500 each, 1 GMC 507 @ $2,995 and the GFC 500 install kit for $1,000 totaling up to their $6,995 figure for the basic Pitch/Roll installation. To do the Pitch Trim at the same time, you add another GSA 28 ($1,500) and the GFC 500 install kit goes up to $1,500 bringing the parts price to $8,995. Adding the Pitch Trim at a later date will run you an extra $100 over doing it at initial install. And then you still have the dual G5 HSI/AI for the prices @kevinw noted. That brings you up to $13,593 before installation. Like @aviatoreb said, $14K labor not included.