Tips on Landing a Mooney Bravo?

[Earl]

Quote: FlyDave

Chuck,

I had problems landing my 201 for the first 5 or 6 months that I had it. It was pretty frustrating until I figured it out. I haven't flown a Bravo but here's how I land my 201:

90 KIAS downwind, 1/3 flaps

80 KIAS on base & 1/3 more flaps

Turn final and full flaps

70 KIAS short final

65 KIAS over the threshold and throttle all the way back (unles you have a long displaced threshhold)

Begin trimming the nose up at this point. Not all at once but trim, wait, trim some more, wait trim a little more ending up with about 3/4 nose-up trim. The airplane will continue to slow and gently descend. You'll get the stall warning  - don't let that throw you off - it's normal - and THE AIRPLANE WILL EASE ITSELF onto the runway gently...no need to force it. It's a beautiful thing!!

Obviously, cross-wind landings are different but try this on a calm day to get a feel for it.

Best of luck

[sleepingsquirrel]

Good find , I have that in my favorites right now to keep for review. I found this which might be helpful ,condsidering the long body Mooneys. Seems to uphold many comments here about landing the Bravo.

 

When we talk about landings in the Ovation or any of the new generation long body Mooneys (M20M, M20R or M20S) we must talk about the landing attitude.  As I mentioned earlier, the long bodies sit with about a positive 4.5 degrees pitch attitude on the ground.  Pilots moving into the newer aircraft from one of the shorter length Mooneys (M20K or earlier) will immediately notice this difference when they first sit in the cockpit.  Now thinking about sight picture and pitch attitude during the flare for landing, most aircraft will need about + 5-degrees during the round out to keep the nose wheel off the runway until the mains are on.  This works quite well for all the Mooneys except the Ovation, Eagle or Bravo.  With an almost 5-degree nose up attitude sitting level, the pitch attitude is going to need to be higher during landing in order to land on the main wheels before the nose.  One of the biggest transition problems I have found for pilots moving into these long Mooneys is the landing – more specifically, landing on the nose first or all three simultaneously.  Either action can quickly lead to a porpoise and the outcome of this isn't very pretty.  Pilot must develop a different sight picture when landing these new Mooneys.  Where 5-degrees worked before, 8-degrees is necessary now.  This just takes practice and the help of a competent instructor familiar with long-body Mooneys.

 As with all Mooneys, airspeed control during the final approach is key.  Fly too fast and the airplane will float on a cushion of air forever. 

Fly the correct approach speed (1.3 V Stall for the weight and flap configuration) on short final, have the airplane configured for landing and trimmed and the touchdown is normal.  If we use a target altitude of 50 feet above the runway to achieve this, then the last 50 feet is very easy.  If we are still chasing the airspeed or trim at 50 feet AGL, then a go around might be advised in order to set it up again.  Seldom do good landings come from bad approaches!

[carusoam]

It seems that anything from M20A - M20TN uses much of the same principles....  (as you may know, I am familiar with C and R)

The long bodies have more engine mass further out front and require "a tad more" thought and trim to keep from dropping the nose in the most final phases of the landing. 

Remember to verify that power is pulled all the way out.  The vernier controls sometimes need to be rotated left to completely remove all power.

The additional 3 degrees of nose up attitude referenced in the Mooneyland article is difficult to measure as PIC.  However, it is a completely new sight picture to get used to.  Most notably she has a big honker that she holds high in front of you.  It takes more and more back pressure (or trim) to keep it there as she settles in.

(long, fiberglass, shaped cowling vs. short, blocky, aluminum cowling)

Keep the speed on target, the nose up and be patient.  If too much of the runway goes by, go around, (control the nose as power comes on).  Decide what too much is in advance...waiting too long to make this decision is unhealthy.  The first few solo flights have a higher probability of landing long, over-run and/or botched go arounds.  Don't let it happen to you.

Best regards,

-a-

[TLSDriver]

Quote: Skywarrior

Hello, all -

Am having difficulty with landings in my Bravo. My approaches are fine UNTIL... I round out for landing. I continually either pull back too hard on the yoke, or not enough. Then I float about six feet above the runway and start stalling.

Never had this problem in Cessnas, but I'm looking like a novice in my new bird, and it's keeping me from passing my BFR.

I've viewed Don Kaye's landings video (which is very helpful), but I'm still not "getting it".

Can anyone offer tips to help me? It's so embarrassing...

 

Chuck M.

 

Do you have a link where you can purchase the Don Kaye's video?

[DonMuncy]

Try this for Don Kaye

http://www.donkaye.com/Dons_Homepage/Welcome.html

Don

[Barry]

There are a lot of suggestions here to try. Here is another. When I bought my Mooney, I had a problem dropping it in on landing such as you. The runway at Martinsburg, WV is 150' x 7815. I was also transitioning from a Cessna, which sat quite a bit higher. The sight picture was making me flare too high.

The first thing I did was sit in the plane for awhile before I took off and just looked around in an attempt to get the feel of sitting so close to the ground on those short little gear.

I then took off and flew the pattern. As I approached the field on final, I kept the plane @ 80 mph and as I went over the numbers I trimed back to 70. I rounded off early to level flight, pulled the power not quite off and left the plane sink until I felt that it was a few feet off the ground. I then pulled the power all the way off and attempted to keep it flying at that height the whole way down the field by slowly pulling aft on the wheel as the plane tried to sink. Kind of a two step flare. Round off to level, let the plane sink to the correct height, attempt to keep it there.

What I do now, is fly the plane to the numbers, pull the power and round off, set the attitude and the plane lands itself.

The hardest part for me was getting used to how low the Mooney sits to the ground. You are now driving (flying) a sports car, not a stage coach.

[FoxMike]

Skywarrior,

Lots of good advice offered so far.  I would add one off the wall possibility.  When I bought by Bravo I had 1500 hours or so of Mooney time.  I had lots of problems with inconsistent landings in this almost new airplane.  I finally took the airspeed indicator to an instrument shop.  I asked them to test it to see if the movement  of the indicator would stick intermittently.  The gauge worked on the bench but I asked them to replace the indicator movement.  They did that and since then I have had no problems.  In 45 years of flying I have only seen one other airspeed indicator problem.  Airspeed indicators are usually reliable but not always.

[Skywarrior]

I agree that a lot of really good advice has been offered, and I do appreciate it.

I'll keep an eye on the ASI - ya never know...

A problem I *do* know of is that my stall warning goes off at weird times, usually in the pattern, at speeds sometimes as high as 90 knots, if there is any bumpiness. My instructor asks me to fly at 83 knots on final just to make sure we don't get a stall warning. I don't like that idea, but I do see where he's coming from; i.e., you don't want to make a habit of ignoring the stall horn.

 

Chuck M.

 

[FoxMike]

Skywarrior,

I had the same problem before I repaired the airspeed indicator.  My Bravo is TKS equipped.  I have wondered if the TKS panel behind the stall warning switch causes the air to burble a little more at medium angles of attack.  BTW the airspeed indicator used in the Bravo was given a special part number so that it could only be replaced through the Mooney parts network.  Since Mooney has gone bankrupt I doubt that applies anymore.  I checked on buying a new one years ago and the price was $1,000.  Good luck I know what you are going thru.

[Shadrach]

Hi Chuck,

Some good advice has been offered and since a lot of opinion is being thrown around, I'll give mine.

1) All approaches should be made at 1.2 x Vso full flaps unless in gusty conditions. Short Field technique uses 1.1 x Vso... 

2) The Cessna you used to fly is not as responsive as the Mooney. The Mooney does not require as much aft pull to arrest the descent. So don't be doing that...

3) The notion that Mooneys must be landed “flat” is false... I have an F model which is a foot shorter than your Bravo and it will do full stall main wheel landings with the nose held off for another 150-200 ft (ad a dash of power and it will wheelie all day)...

4) It might be possible to strike the tail on landing, but it's not bloody likely that you'll do it without really trying. I've landed my F at would feel like a pretty severe angles and it's no problem. The extra foot of fuselage does not make a Brave a runway scraper (it's not a Cirrus for heaven's sake)

5) After you've become comfortable with normal landings, find a good MOONEY SPECIFIC INSTRUCTOR and practice short field landings. It will make you a better pattern and approach pilot.

6) Regarding instructors... Find one that knows the intricacies of the bird.  I talked with a guy from flight safety a few months ago who had some interesting procedures, when I asked him about them he could not tell me why he was doing what he was doing. I don't know his name, but don't fly with him...

 

[aviatoreb]

Hi Folks.  This has been a very informative thread.  Thank you.  

I just got a Mooney Rocket and I am learning how it likes to land.  I was very surprised to see how the former owner was landing the airplane when he was demo'ing it for me, and it is nothing like anyone here is mentioning.  He would land with the speed brakes deployed and flaps configured for go around.  Also he was landing much faster than I would expect.  90kts on short final and 80kts at flare.  Normally that is a recipe for an epic float.  With speed brakes there is no float despite the high speed and it sets down easily, firmly although way to fast in my opinion with lots of kinetic energy to scrub before it rolls to the end of the runway.  I have a little time in a C and so I know a little of the standard way.  Still I am very curious of your collective opinions of this method of landing and if some variation might be a good idea.  Maybe speed brakes out and 5 knots slower might be a good thing? I am just exploring the idea.  I don't think he is alone in landing with speed brakes either; I actually spoke to a Bravo pilot many months back who also landed with speedbrakes deployed.  His take was also that it made landings easier and that if need be there is lots of power to go around even with brakes deployed if they were to get stuck or something.

[Z06-Acclaim]

Just learning from the thread as I don't have experience in Long Body Mooneys to contribute but I do have a question.  Many techniques explained here are followed with the disclaimer "except in gusty conditions"

Can someone give some advice as to a good technique (Speeds / flaps / w or w/o speed brakes) to use IN Gusty conditions?

I'm in the process of purchasing a long body and should be picking it up in about a week and a half.  I can't predict what the weather conditions will be like on my trip home so advice in this area would also be helpful to me.

Thanks to everyone for all the techniques listed here already!

 

[Shadrach]

Quote: aviatoreb

Hi Folks.  This has been a very informative thread.  Thank you.  

I just got a Mooney Rocket and I am learning how it likes to land.  I was very surprised to see how the former owner was landing the airplane when he was demo'ing it for me, and it is nothing like anyone here is mentioning.  He would land with the speed brakes deployed and flaps configured for go around.  Also he was landing much faster than I would expect.  90kts on short final and 80kts at flare.  Normally that is a recipe for an epic float.  With speed brakes there is no float despite the high speed and it sets down easily, firmly although way to fast in my opinion with lots of kinetic energy to scrub before it rolls to the end of the runway.  I have a little time in a C and so I know a little of the standard way.  Still I am very curious of your collective opinions of this method of landing and if some variation might be a good idea.  Maybe speed brakes out and 5 knots slower might be a good thing? I am just exploring the idea.  I don't think he is alone in landing with speed brakes either; I actually spoke to a Bravo pilot many months back who also landed with speedbrakes deployed.  His take was also that it made landings easier and that if need be there is lots of power to go around even with brakes deployed if they were to get stuck or something.

[Shadrach]

[Shadrach]

This formum software is so weird... another day, another digifart...

 

Anyway.  I would finally say that the best way to improve your landings is to practice steep power off approaches starting abeam the numbers on downwind. Get used to compensating for different wind conditions at the same airport and then branch out. I practice flying steep finals power off using nothing but elevator. I control my final approach slope by alternating between slowing the plane to create a flat to nose up pitch high rate of sink and nose down glide to maintain speed of 1.2 time stall.  No power descents at 1.2 times stall require on round out. The descent arrests nicely as you flare in ground effect and the mains will grease right on leaving enough energy to hold the nose off for a few second. The stall horn will sound immediately in the flare if you're on speed.  I cannot imagine why this would not work for all Mooneys. Additionally, it helps you tighten up your patterns. I like to practice 180-degree power off approaches from downwind as well. It has helped tremendously with my approach and landing skills. I know that many are concerned about stall/spin in the pattern. I think that practicing these techniques will actually prevent the stall spin F’up in the pattern...

 

 

 

[Parker_Woodruff]

Quote: aviatoreb

Hi Folks.  This has been a very informative thread.  Thank you.  

I just got a Mooney Rocket and I am learning how it likes to land.  I was very surprised to see how the former owner was landing the airplane when he was demo'ing it for me, and it is nothing like anyone here is mentioning.  He would land with the speed brakes deployed and flaps configured for go around.  Also he was landing much faster than I would expect.  90kts on short final and 80kts at flare.  Normally that is a recipe for an epic float.  With speed brakes there is no float despite the high speed and it sets down easily, firmly although way to fast in my opinion with lots of kinetic energy to scrub before it rolls to the end of the runway.  I have a little time in a C and so I know a little of the standard way.  Still I am very curious of your collective opinions of this method of landing and if some variation might be a good idea.  Maybe speed brakes out and 5 knots slower might be a good thing? I am just exploring the idea.  I don't think he is alone in landing with speed brakes either; I actually spoke to a Bravo pilot many months back who also landed with speedbrakes deployed.  His take was also that it made landings easier and that if need be there is lots of power to go around even with brakes deployed if they were to get stuck or something.

[Shadrach]

Quote: Parker_Woodruff

80 knots in the flare?  That is much too fast and poor technique.  Pitch for Airspeed, power for altitude.  No need for speedbrakes in the flare either.  They look cool, but deploy them after touchdown or use them in the approach...in the flare?  eh...

Some Pilots feel uncomfortable at 70 KIAS, but come on...80 KIAS in the flare?  What's he flying... a 4300 lb Mooney?

[aviatoreb]

Quote: Shadrach

FIFY... 

[Parker_Woodruff]

Quote: aviatoreb

I agree that 80 is awfully fast.  That is why I brought it up - I was surprised.  I was not just that he was doing it - but that he was managing to do it without float with speed brakes.  It was very interesting.

[Shadrach]

[Shadrach]

Quote: aviatoreb

FIFY... 

[aviatoreb]

Quote: Shadrach

[Parker_Woodruff]

[231Pilot]

I've never flown one, but I have read that tailstrikes were not uncommon with the Mooney Mite. (not quite a long body....or even a short body......maybe an extra short body?)

[recolimited]

On April 16, 2011 at 3:10 AM, aviatoreb said:

Hi Folks.  This has been a very informative thread.  Thank you.  

 

I just got a Mooney Rocket and I am learning how it likes to land.  I was very surprised to see how the former owner was landing the airplane when he was demo'ing it for me, and it is nothing like anyone here is mentioning.  He would land with the speed brakes deployed and flaps configured for go around.  Also he was landing much faster than I would expect.  90kts on short final and 80kts at flare.  Normally that is a recipe for an epic float.  With speed brakes there is no float despite the high speed and it sets down easily, firmly although way to fast in my opinion with lots of kinetic energy to scrub before it rolls to the end of the runway.  I have a little time in a C and so I know a little of the standard way.  Still I am very curious of your collective opinions of this method of landing and if some variation might be a good idea.  Maybe speed brakes out and 5 knots slower might be a good thing? I am just exploring the idea.  I don't think he is alone in landing with speed brakes either; I actually spoke to a Bravo pilot many months back who also landed with speedbrakes deployed.  His take was also that it made landings easier and that if need be there is lots of power to go around even with brakes deployed if they were to get stuck or something.

 

I just bought an Acclaim this week and am trying to become FRIENDS with it, however the landings are the only conflict that seems to remain.  I did make a 1 notch of flaps landing yesterday inadvertently and it was my BEST LANDING YET!!!  I tried it again after a 2 hour cross country and PRESTO another near greaser.  I'm coming out of a C340 where flying at 100kts down final is SOP and actually prefer the higher speed.  The float and ballooning I was getting when trying to land with full flaps was EXCRUCIATING and certainly made me feel like a student pilot.  I haven't used the speed brakes much yet, but I plan on doing some practice landings today and will see how they affect my 1 notch flap landings.  I think it will be something that I will like and utilize in short field environments.  I am flying into a 3K' strip in the Bahamas on Wednesday, so I need to have this figured out in advance of that mission.  But I plan on winning this battle of wills to make friends with this new beautiful bird, even if I have to do things HER way...  thx for all the good tips & insight found in this space.