Garmin product announcement July 18

[Raptor05121]

Has anyone seen the GDL-82? $1,795 for ADS-B out for us CB'ers without GPS

https://buy.garmin.com/en-US/US/p/540911#overview

[aviatoreb]

It would be good if the KI300 becomes available.

But I wouldn't buy one given its price point, and the new market which is ever changing and just yesterday became sufficiently changed....

So the G5 is not allowed to drive attitude for my KFC200?  But how much is it to replace my KFC200 with a GFC500 and my HSI and Attitude (KI256) with a pair of G5's?  I think considering the later, that the KI300 is now a bit over priced and it pays to be thinking about getting all that legacy stuff out of my airplane, extra functionality and greater reliability aside.

[PTK]

19 minutes ago, mike_elliott said:

I think we have seen this same presentation for the last 3 years....nothing to new see here. Peter, why don't you ask for your money back, or have you even pulled the trigger? No doubt you (or your children) should get SN001 if it comes to be.

 

29 minutes ago, Greg_D said:

Nice!  I’m excited to see that.  My source was 3 Bendix King reps at their Sun n Fun booth earlier this year.

Now, can you show me a source where you can actually purchase a unit?  Or is this going to be a dog and pony show like their KSN 770 that was poised for “imminent release” for about 7 year?

This is an event scheduled and posted on the EAA Oshkosh website. Would they go to the trouble to do so if it wasn't true? What do you want me to tell you! 

[PTK]

20 minutes ago, aviatoreb said:

It would be good if the KI300 becomes available.

But I wouldn't buy one given its price point, and the new market which is ever changing and just yesterday became sufficiently changed....

So the G5 is not allowed to drive attitude for my KFC200?  But how much is it to replace my KFC200 with a GFC500 and my HSI and Attitude (KI256) with a pair of G5's?  I think considering the later, that the KI300 is now a bit over priced and it pays to be thinking about getting all that legacy stuff out of my airplane, extra functionality and greater reliability aside.

Assuming they announce it at Oshkosh, there'd be nothing else available that can simply replace the KI256 and facilitate the removal of the vacuum system. Garmin has shown they're not interested. 

Maybe a little high at 5K but not prohibitive. They want 25K for the KI256!

[MIm20c]

10 minutes ago, PTK said:

 

This is an event scheduled and posted on the EAA Oshkosh website. Would they go to the trouble to do so if it wasn't true? What do you want me to tell you! 

I think Lance posted the event schedule from the prior year and it said the same thing. 

[johncuyle]

I emailed Garmin about both wanting attitude output from the G5 and wanting the option to use it as a backup for the G500. I have been told (not by Garmin people) there are technical reasons use as backup is unlikely (due to failure modes). Its really unfortunate since I think many of us are in the same position. We have KFC 200 or similar now, it mostly works but the servos are a constant money sink or the gyros are or both and what we all need is done sort of path to getting from that to new instruments and a new autopilot. If we could replace the gyros with G5 now, that would be one step, followed by maybe a GFC 500 in the future. I don't expect the GFC 500 to be certified for the K model and newer, though. The web presentation stressed that the 500 was for low performance singles and the presenter mentioned that it would not be STC'd for planes which performed outside its design targets, which includes planes that spend time in the flight levels. That's kind of what the K model is for.

 

Which creates a bigger problem for people like us because we're looking for something to solve the gryo problem now, but the G5 only gets us half way there and, worse, while a G5 is probably the most cost effective way to deal with a busted HSI even if it is considered throw away money (about the same price as an overhaul and you won't need another overhaul) if the ultimate AP solution from Garmin for these birds is the GFC-600, it implies their expected primary instrument for these planes is G500. So you will eventually need to pull the G5 out and replace it with something else to use as backup.

 

I guess the short answer is "go to G500, do not pass G5, do not defer avionics spending" but that's a big check and the Aspen 2000 becomes reality hard to ignore as a G500 alternative. If you wanted to drop the value of the airframe into the panel you could conceivably go G500 GFC600 plus maybe an ESI-500 for a backup, but that's hard to see my way to doing period, and even harder to see doing all at once. Meanwhile my HSI is flakey and the best option at the moment still appears to be to try to find a working pullout to nurse me forward another year until there's a more obvious solution.

 

 

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[Marauder]

Thank you very much for the clarification. ACU is inlcuded with Aspen 1000 PRO, right? 

Yes


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[aviatoreb]

29 minutes ago, johncuyle said:

I emailed Garmin about both wanting attitude output from the G5 and wanting the option to use it as a backup for the G500. I have been told (not by Garmin people) there are technical reasons use as backup is unlikely (due to failure modes). Its really unfortunate since I think many of us are in the same position. We have KFC 200 or similar now, it mostly works but the servos are a constant money sink or the gyros are or both and what we all need is done sort of path to getting from that to new instruments and a new autopilot. If we could replace the gyros with G5 now, that would be one step, followed by maybe a GFC 500 in the future. I don't expect the GFC 500 to be certified for the K model and newer, though. The web presentation stressed that the 500 was for low performance singles and the presenter mentioned that it would not be STC'd for planes which performed outside its design targets, which includes planes that spend time in the flight levels. That's kind of what the K model is for.

 

Which creates a bigger problem for people like us because we're looking for something to solve the gryo problem now, but the G5 only gets us half way there and, worse, while a G5 is probably the most cost effective way to deal with a busted HSI even if it is considered throw away money (about the same price as an overhaul and you won't need another overhaul) if the ultimate AP solution from Garmin for these birds is the GFC-600, it implies their expected primary instrument for these planes is G500. So you will eventually need to pull the G5 out and replace it with something else to use as backup.

 

I guess the short answer is "go to G500, do not pass G5, do not defer avionics spending" but that's a big check and the Aspen 2000 becomes reality hard to ignore as a G500 alternative. If you wanted to drop the value of the airframe into the panel you could conceivably go G500 GFC600 plus maybe an ESI-500 for a backup, but that's hard to see my way to doing period, and even harder to see doing all at once. Meanwhile my HSI is flakey and the best option at the moment still appears to be to try to find a working pullout to nurse me forward another year until there's a more obvious solution.

 

 

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What does that mean not as a backup?  Does that simply mean you need some other kind of attitude in your airplane to use as backup attitude?  For example I already have a life saver traditional electric gyro as a second attitude indicator.  Could I just keep that as my back up attitude and then get a dual G5+GFC500?

You are in the same boat as me - and many of us - a working KFC200 system, but it is expensive to keep this legacy system working, expensive enough that over just a few years a switch to a GFC500 system might be well considered as price competitive with doing nothing.  Not to mention the consideration of extra functionality.

[Marauder]

Another way to think about the G5 and the Bendix King AP situation is a vulture hovering over a dying carcass. If Bendix King AP (or STECs) repair costs continue to escalate, how long before someone says "pull that old BK (Or STEC) AP and put in a GFC500".

Also wasn't Garmin founded by former BK employees?


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[johncuyle]

What does that mean not as a backup?  Does that simply mean you need some other kind of attitude in your airplane to use as backup attitude?  For example I already have a life saver traditional electric gyro as a second attitude indicator.  Could I just keep that as my back up attitude and then get a dual G5+GFC500?
You are in the same boat as me - and many of us - a working KFC200 system, but it is expensive to keep this legacy system working, expensive enough that over just a few years a switch to a GFC500 system might be well considered as price competitive with doing nothing.  Not to mention the consideration of extra functionality.

My understanding from talking to my avionics guy is that the G500 requires an independently powered secondary attitude instrument in case of alternator failure. Vacuum or electric with batteries. Not sure if the lifesaver qualifies, ask your avionics guy. All I know about the G5 is that it cannot be that backup for the G500, so options for eliminating the dependency on the BK gyros are limited to the Aspen (2000 is fully redundant and doesn't need any additional hardware) or the G500 (you need another AI, and it can't be a G5). There are inexpensive electric AI with battery backups that will work, but it would be nice to have something with a little more capability. It seems like Garmin is missing a beat by not having their product offerings such that I could buy a pair of G5 now to replace my gyros then buy a G500 later and slide the G5 over to function as backups. This becomes a lot less of a problem if you prefer the Aspen to the G500 anyway, but the impression I got from the web presentation was that the GFC600's compatibility with the Evolution was at "you can install it with one and we're talking to Aspen about making it work ok. Ish."


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[MIm20c]

I think there is some confusion between the g500 AP and the g500 pfd when talking about AI interface. 

[johncuyle]

I think there is some confusion between the g500 AP and the g500 pfd when talking about AI interface. 

There is no G500 AP. The G500 is a PFD. Garmin's new AP's are the GFC 500 (for low performance piston singles) and the GFC 600 (for high performance singles, twins, and turboprops.)


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[smccray]

10 minutes ago, johncuyle said:

There is no G500 AP. The G500 is a PFD. Garmin's new AP's are the GFC 500 (for low performance piston singles) and the GFC 600 (for high performance singles, twins, and turboprops.)


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Was a post on beechtalk- the GFC600 is TSO'd which accounts for the price difference. 

We'll learn the details soon- I would bet the GFC500 uses the same components as the autopilot in the Lancair Evolution aircraft with the G3X system. If the components can safely fly run the Evo, surely they can safely fly any version of a Mooney. 

[johncuyle]

Was a post on beechtalk- the GFC600 is TSO'd which accounts for the price difference. 
We'll learn the details soon- I would bet the GFC500 uses the same components as the autopilot in the Lancair Evolution aircraft with the G3X system. If the components can safely fly run the Evo, surely they can safely fly any version of a Mooney. 

It's not quite entirely certification costs according to articles linked from the BT thread. Servos are different and connection options are different. Agree with the assertion that if it could run an Evolution it ought to be able to run a Mooney, but then it probably also ought to be able to run an A36, and they announced GFC 600 STC for that model. It'll be interesting to see if they get the GX3 approved for our planes. Cubcrafters offers it in a part 23 plane now.


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[smccray]

8 minutes ago, johncuyle said:

It's not quite entirely certification costs according to articles linked from the BT thread. Servos are different and connection options are different. Agree with the assertion that if it could run an Evolution it ought to be able to run a Mooney, but then it probably also ought to be able to run an A36, and they announced GFC 600 STC for that model. It'll be interesting to see if they get the GX3 approved for our planes. Cubcrafters offers it in a part 23 plane now.


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Just because garmin didn't get the GFC500 stc'd for the A36 doesn't mean that the GFC500 can't fly an A36 safely. It could be a technical issue which I would agree is valid, it could be a certification/ paperwork issue with the FAA which over time will be resolved, or it could be an economic issue- first give the A36 owners the 600, take the profits and then offer the 500 later if market competition requires it.

I'm betting on economics but I'm cynical. 

Edit- if I were Garmin I would do exactly the same thing. I can't blame them   

Edited July 20, 2017 by smccray

[johncuyle]

Just because garmin didn't get the GFC500 stc'd for the A36 doesn't mean that the GFC500 can't fly an A36 safely. It could be a technical issue which I would agree is valid, it could be a certification/ paperwork issue with the FAA which over time will be resolved, or it could be an economic issue- first give the A36 owners the 600, take the profits and then offer the 500 later if market competition requires it.
I'm betting on economics but I'm cynical. 
Edit- if I were Garmin I would do exactly the same thing. I can't blame them   

If I had to put money on it, I'd bet the J model and earlier get the GFC 500 and the K model and later get the GFC 600. For the same reason. I can't blame them either.


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[smccray]

9 minutes ago, johncuyle said:

If I had to put money on it, I'd bet the J model and earlier get the GFC 500 and the K model and later get the GFC 600. For the same reason. I can't blame them either.


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Which will be a shame- Garmin will need some sort of justification for 500/600.  The 182 is getting the GFC500, so clearly it's not a question of high performance as defined by the FAA. Gross weight on the 182 is in the same ballpark as the long bodies at 3100 lbs.

My guess- Garmin eventually gives everyone the GFC500, they just stall a bit on airframes they believe will pay up for the 600.  Twins, FIKI, higher value high performance singles will start with with the single as there isn't any other viable option out there.  Going to be fun to watch- at least I can integrate the HSI and get GPSS immediately!

[KSMooniac]

I think the 500 will eventually be available for most of us in the single world, but the question is how long we have to wait for the STC process. Buying/installing a TSO kit will make it faster, certainly. Perhaps other factors like commercial ops or FIKI might require the TSO hardware, while our regular pt 91 ops won't?

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[aviatoreb]

What does the GFC600 do that the GFC500 will not?

[jetdriven]

Garmin is known for only offering the expensive option for the high performance airplanes. 

[donkaye]

On 7/18/2017 at 5:46 PM, Bennett said:

I spoke to a major Garmin avionics shop today and I was told that Garmin was setting up a special tent as Oshkosh to seek input on the priorities for their STCs relative to the autopilots. The suggestion was to have all interested Mooney pilots to visit that Garmin tent and push Mooney towards the top of the list. Also Garmin will be soliciting input as to what is wanted in future features. Good chance to speak directly to decision makers. I am not going to Oshkosh this year, so I can't directly participate.


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I am and will push for Mooney going to the top of the list.

[Godfather]

6 minutes ago, donkaye said:

I am and will push for Mooney going the top of the list.

You know the first thing I thought of when reading the release news is that you would be one of the first Mooney pilots to get the 600 system. 

[donkaye]

7 minutes ago, Godfather said:

You know the first thing I thought of when reading the release news is that you would be one of the first Mooney pilots to get the 600 system. 

You are right about that.  I have never really gotten the KFC 150 to work as well as I would like it to when interfaced with the G500.  Plus, all the extra safety features being added are worth the cost to me.  So, I'll be first in line when it gets approved.

And just when I thought there would be nothing else that I could possibly want for the plane.  The Bravo is the perfect plane for me compared to buying a turbine airplane.  Fast enough, reasonably cost effective compared to a turbine, and when it comes to upgrading waaaay less cost to do an upgrade.  Today, 2:45 San Jose to Ogden on the way, first to Sioux Falls to do a Training with a person having some difficulty with his landings, and then on to Oshkosh to talk Garmin into getting the GFC 600 STC'd for the Mooney .

[Godfather]

For me it is not legal to install the G5 as a primary unit because I have a flight director and FIKI. From what it looks like I might be wise to buy an Aspen system as (Trek mentioned on another site they are currently working with Aspen to integrate w/ Garmin s AP) it might be more likely to work with the 500 AP vs the G500 which will probably need the 600 AP??

Or will Garmin demand all Eagles, Ovations, Bravos, etc use the more expensive unit?

[johncuyle]

What does the GFC600 do that the GFC500 will not?

Big item: Interfaces with more avionics. The GFC 500 appears to be tied to the G5. You get the G5 as primary Attitude and Heading and it drives the GFC 500. The GFC 600 does not work with the G5 and apparently isn't going to. If you want an Aspen Evolution or a G500, then you need a GFC 600.

Other than that some marketing bullet points which may or may not really matter for an M20 like yaw damper and how beefy the servos are.

https://aopa.org/news-and-media/all-news/2017/july/18/garmin-announces-two-new-autopilots

Has a bit more info.


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