Starter or Battery - M20K

[Bryan]

Hello MS'rs.  I experienced a problem today that I think is starter related.  I have an '82, new to me, M20K 231 that has been flown regularly.  I have had the plane about 2-3 weeks and been going great until today.  Went to go start the plane and when I hit the starter the prop spun 1/2 of a turn and stopped like it was a weak battery.  I could not get past the compression stroke to kick it off.  The battery appears to be a Concord as of Nov 2015 but cannot find the a log entry matching the upgrade.  It appears to have a Gill prior to this but not pulled the battery (yet) to see the model. Visually, from the battery box it looks like the Concord. (picture attached)

I got her started but not after rotating the prop back off the compression stroke back 3/4 of a turn and re-trying - it was enough to kick it over.  Flew with no issues and no overworking alternator (working) issues.  Landed 2 hours later and killed the engine and decided to try to re-start (hot) but ran into the same thing.  BUS voltage according to my Insight G2 with the avionics on but not running is 11.8.  I was able to put an analog battery meter on the terminals and the battery shows in the green (on this cheap meter).

Is this a sign that my starter is going bad?  No corrosion at the battery terminals and they are clean and tight.  If the prop has enough swing she will kick off but close the compression stroke it sticks - no clicking.

Will get my A/P to check it next but thought I would ask here to get some insight and be more informed.

[carusoam]

Pull the battery up far enough to read the word Concorde, just to be sure...

If it says Gill, the date indicates it is worn out.

If it says Concorde start checking and cleaning all the connections.

See how old the starter solenoid is.  If original, could be giving you a challenge...

PP thoughts only, not a mechanic.

Best regards,

-a-

[Skates97]

I had a similar issue with my plane. I thought it was a weak battery but it always seemed to have more of an issue when it was warm. ie: after flying and then stopping off for fuel before going back to the hangar. It would try to turn but stop at the compression stroke. Eventually it would finally go after multiple tries. I can't remember who but someone posted a link to a troubleshooting page for skytech starters. I don't have a skytech but the first thing on the troubleshooting list, "The Bump & Run" described exactly what mine was doing. Picked up a solenoid for it, had it replaced, and haven't had a single problem since.

http://www.skytecair.com/Troubleshooting.htm

[RLCarter]

1 hour ago, carusoam said:

 

If it says Gill, the date indicates it is worn out.

I seem to be in argumentative mood........lol

i have serviced literally 1000's of batteries and most failures are due how the battery was initially serviced, I installed a Gil in a C150, 2 yrs later the 0-200 turned into a giant oil pump and we quit flying it, 6 months later the Gil in the C172 crapped out (pushing 5yrs old) so we swapped it with the 150 just so we could go flying. 2yrs later we still haven't replaced it. 

Most all sealed batteries come serviced from the manufactures due to being over filled in the field and causing major damage due to them spitting out the acid it didn't want, conventional batteries (filler caps) generally don't get the maintenance they need (water added due to evaporation) which exposes the plates to air and allows them to sulfate. 

If you activate (add the acid to a new battery), allow the battery to sit for a minimum of 6hrs for the plates to be fully saturated before you connect anything to the terminals. If there are dry spots on the plates they will short out if you charge or discharge the battery. I let a new conventional or sealed (if I added the acid) battery sit generally over night before charging and installing. 

While I'm on batteries, sitting one on concrete will not discharge it, this comes from the days when batteries were constructed of tar covered wood cases, tar will conduct electricity so they were always being drained of power no matter the surface they sat on. 

[Fritz Kaiser]

Hello Bryan,

 

I've exact the same issue with my O1.

What engine oil do you fly in your K-model  ?

multigrade or monograde( W100 / W80 )?

Please check your starterdrive immediately?

A starterdrive spring malfunktion can contaminate your engine with metall chips!!

Monograde oil is much better for this special designed starter drive

Good luck

Fritz

[Guest]

You have a Concord battery.  I would remove the battery and re charge it per the battery maintenance manual, then do a capacity check.  If it passes the capacity check, recharge it and reinstall it.

In the mean time if you can borrow someone's battery you can check the starter and engine with a known good battery.

Clarence

[Bryan]

Yes, Concorde battery: "Platinum Series" RG-35AXC.  33amps to 10 volts.  I went ahead and pulled it out and stuck it on a low 2amp charge and will try again.  The battery is just 18 months old so I am thinking either solenoid or starter.  Is the starter solenoid firewall forward?

[MB65E]

I would charge it at 2 amps until it comes up to 12.3 or .4. It probably won't. Then leave it on for say 30 min. You should still have 12 or so volts on the battery. If the voltage rate starts falling off rapidly after say 10 min I would just replace the battery. 

I had a electrical issue that was initiated by a bad diode in the alternator. I replaced the ALT, then I had issue starting after that first flight. I replaced the starter relay, then I thought I was  loosing voltage off the master relay. Finally after load testing the battery, I found it was internally shorted when a load was applied. Bad batteries make for hard and expensive troubleshooting. I would start with the battery next time!!

-Matt

[Skates97]

1 hour ago, Bryan said:

Yes, Concorde battery: "Platinum Series" RG-35AXC.  33amps to 10 volts.  I went ahead and pulled it out and stuck it on a low 2amp charge and will try again.  The battery is just 18 months old so I am thinking either solenoid or starter.  Is the starter solenoid firewall forward?

I don't know on the K, but on my D it is on the firewall forward mounted directly to the firewall. The positive battery cable goes to the master solenoid and then there is a short power wire that goes from that to the starter solenoid. They are almost side by side on the firewall in my plane.

[kortopates]

There is no solenoid on Continental starters. Continental uses an entirely different design that uses a starter adapter in lieu of the solenoid function.
I agree with starting with the battery.


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[Guest]

Not to confuse what others are saying, there is a starter solenoid installed in the airframe.  This excerpt from the manual explains it.

 

[kortopates]

True, but this isn't the stater solenoid on lycoming starters that engaged the starter gear into the flywheel but a starter relay that provides power to the starter when ignition key is pushed in.

The annunciator in the cockpit should be helping to diagnose if the starter relay is a possibility. When the starter is engaged with key, the starter annunciator lights up. If it's still lit with the key pushed in yet the starter isn't making any noise and not turning you know the starter circuit is still energized.
The converse isn't true though I.e. If the light goes out and the starter stops since it could mean too big of a voltage drop.
Which is why you should start with a charged battery and then a voltage meter at the starter.


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[jackn]

I dealt with this issue 2 years ago. It's going to be either battery, starter, or starter adapter. Some good suggestions on checking battery, or you could try using an external power plug to see if that changes anything. Finding out whether it's the starter or adapter is going to be more difficult. I replaced the starter first because it was easier and cheaper. The new starter sounded a lot better, but didn't fix the problem. Replacing an adapter is fairly major surgery, but on the 231 it's easier because you don't have the belt driven alternator and associated pulley & brackets. 

If you do have to replace the adapter, I strongly recommend removing the mags ( if they're close to the 500 hour inspection, and, r/r the engine driven alternator and drive bushing. If you don't, Murphy's law dictates that these items will fail shortly after putting everything back together. Getting at these items later will be a total PIA.

i used custom airmotive to overhaul the starter adapter. They charged about $1k. Starting has been fine since. 

Best

Jack

[Bryan]

It appeared to be the battery.  Pulled her out and recycled it and all appears to be good.  Thinking about a BatteryMinder for this but it flys prolly 3-days a week (or more) for now.  Any thoughts on getting one?

Thanks for the help fellas!

[RLCarter]

1 hour ago, Bryan said:

It appeared to be the battery.  Pulled her out and recycled it and all appears to be good.  Thinking about a BatteryMinder for this but it flys prolly 3-days a week (or more) for now.  Any thoughts on getting one?

Thanks for the help fellas!

flying that often you should not need one

[Guest]

8 hours ago, Bryan said:

It appeared to be the battery.  Pulled her out and recycled it and all appears to be good.  Thinking about a BatteryMinder for this but it flys prolly 3-days a week (or more) for now.  Any thoughts on getting one?

Thanks for the help fellas!

What does "recycled it" mean?

Clarence

[Bryan]

Charge it at 2amps up to 12.5, capacity check back down and the recharge it again and reinstalled it.

[Guest]

4 hours ago, Bryan said:

Charge it at 2amps up to 12.5, capacity check back down and the recharge it again and reinstalled it.

I would be checking the charging circuit as well, a healthy alternator should not allow your battery to discharge.  The rubber drive couplings are known to slip causing poor output.

Clarence

[CaptRJM]

It still could be the battery.  You have no idea of how it was treated by the previous owner.  If the battery was allowed to completely discharge it may not come fully back when recharged.  I'd recommend that you fully charge it with a BatteryMinder, let it rest for several hours then test it with a load tester.  This will give you an good idea of the condition of the battery.

I had a 6 month old Concorde.  I has a passenger that accidently turned on one of the overhead lights while exiting.  Came back 2 days later and the battery was totally flat.   It took a charge but never exceeded 75% capacity.  It just got worse and worse.  Finally decided to change it out after a few more months.  Fortunately, Concorde has a good warranty so I got a replacement at nearly no cost.