Pre Purchase Inspection Checklist

[SMPilot]

As noted in another topic I started, we're selling our Cirrus and looking for an Ovation.  (Funny side note, spelling auto correct has been calling it an ovulation between me and my partners. Now the running joke)

We will make sure we get a PPI and we are going to use some of the recommended shops and business that have come highly rated, especially in these forums.

MY QUESTION IS:  Does anyone have one or point me to a basic checklist that I can bring with me the first time I "meet" the airplane?  Something that they have seen that works well for that initial review of the airplane, before you even call in a mechanic for a quick review and then PPI?

 

[INA201]

Here you go.

http://www.lasar.com/sales/checklist.asp

[Yetti]

The Laser list is good.  But I think you wanted an initial

Check the wheel wells for corrosion.  Camera cell phones can see where you can't

Pull the most rear along the wing root inspection port. Take pics.

Smoking or loose rivets all over the plane.

Check tail movement up and down should be less than 1/4 inch

Check rudder for play

Do a really thoughtful walk around.  Like one that takes 30 minutes to an hour.

Engine logs.  Compression test.

Poor man compression test. pull the prop through see if all cylinders are about the same

Operational check of everything that operates.

 

[DVA]

A growing number of shops will not do a "pre buy" inspection, using those words. The litigation costs of purchases gone bad and error and omissions rates are both too high these days. If you haven't seen this already my bet is that you will soon. A term such as Customer Directed Inspection - which has a different legal meaning - will, imho, become more prevalent in the industry in the near future. I mention that just as food for thought.

My advice to new purchasers is to use a two step process in the explore and buy phases.

When you find an aircraft that you want to explore, you or a trusted designate go put eyes on it first. Look at it throughly from a pilot owner perspective. Turn everything on and off, check it like it was a pre-flight that you wanted to win a contest performing. Take the test flight, look listen and feel - make notes. Get copies of the all the log books and go through them while making a summary list of all major events with dates and times. Look for oddities and patterns of maintenance (or lack thereof) as a pilot/owner would do. Most of all be suspicious and ask questions.

Then at the first hint of real concern (the smell test fails) walk away. Don't spend another dime.

However, if you like the plane, then treat the deal as if your life depended on it. Find a shop you trust or one that comes recommended from a third-party and have them simply do an annual. That's the best pre-buy and you are getting a legal and current airworthiness sign-off as well. Do this even it the plane has a current Annual from last month. I say this as a shop owner, I have seen paper annuals done, don't trust the last Annual unless you have extraordinary and overwhelming proof and confidence.

You can negotiate all of the deal costs, corrective actions and Go - No Go covenants of the Annual into the contract ahead of time. And any seller who has nothing to hide will cooperate fully and fairly in this process.

Doing these steps you spend far less money investigating and you do the correct and legally recognized final inspection as you take ownership.

Others might disagree, but that's how I do it.

Good luck!

[Bob - S50]

And look for blue steaks indicating a fuel leak.  Although, if the owner is smart but not necessarily honest, they will have washed those off.

[ArtVandelay]

Mike Busch strongly recommends against allowing your plane to be inspected (annual, 100 hour) and the prebuy should be called an evaluation or appraisal, this protects the seller from being scammed by a unscrupulous AP who grounds the plane as being un airworthy. After prebuy then convert it into an annual if prebuy results are satisfactory.

[midlifeflyer]

1 minute ago, teejayevans said:

Mike Busch strongly recommends against allowing your plane to be inspected (annual, 100 hour) and the prebuy should be called an evaluation or appraisal, this protects the seller from being scammed by a unscrupulous AP who grounds the plane as being un airworthy. After prebuy then convert it into an annual if prebuy results are satisfactory.

There are a number of issues with the annual instead of pre-buy, especially if it is the seller's mechanic. I've seen sales, for example, where the seller's mechanic missed significant airworthiness issues. Also the goals are different. An annual is looking for current airworthiness. A good rebuy should also consider the likelihood of later problems.

[Rmag]

When I bought my J, I used a lot of the info in this article:  http://www.mooneypilots.com/mapalog/M20J_Inspection.htm

some of which will not apply to an ovation.  The attached file is a lot of the detail from that article in a checklist format.  After the checklist I continued it to complete an annual.

EDIT:  here is the article for the Ovation:  http://www.mooneypilots.com/mapalog/M20SR_prepurchase_inspection.html

Pre-Buy Checklist.pdf

[DVA]

...this protects the seller from being scammed by a unscrupulous AP who grounds the plane as being un airworthy. After prebuy then convert it into an annual if prebuy results are satisfactory.

Well... not exactly. The FARs make no provision for an A&P or AI to ground a plane and essentially take it as a hostage. But the rules do have other protections that help guide us from flying unairworthy aircraft.

The easiest one to understand is:

14 CFR 91.403(a): The owner or operator of an aircraft is primarily responsible for maintaining that aircraft in an airworthy condition, including compliance with part 39 of this chapter [Airworthiness Directives].

In short, the mechanic and or the IA are only responsible for pointing out issues. It is the owners responsibility to ensure airworthiness. A mechanic has no authority or duty to wrestle an owner to the ground and confiscate his keys.

So in the example above, if a "pre-buy" or "evaluation" is done and the A&P discovers what s/he believes is an unairworthy issue, can the owner elect not to fix it? Yes. But, the owner now has knowledge of that unairworthy issue. So, can the aircraft fly? Well ...

14 CFR 91.7(a): No person may operate a civil aircraft unless it is in an airworthy condition.

That's simple to understand, but we do that all the time in practice. It's seems more like a matter of *how unairworthy* is it?

For instance, you have a "primary" oil pressure gauge that's inop but you have a working secondary gauge. Is the aircraft airworthy? Would it pass an Annual like that? No.

But I guarantee no shop will take that plane hostage. They'd say to the owner -"you'll need to fix that now or at the annual"

If a wing was loose, would you fly it? Of course not. But in the eyes of the rules both a loose wing and an inop primary oil pressure gauge are equally "unairworthy".

All this is to say that no matter what you call your inspection, Annual, 100 Hour, evaluation, peek-a-boo, whatever - if an unairworthy issue is discovered, it is now discovered. Period. There's no magic that happens at the Annual in this regard.

The owner, not the mechanic is the final authority on maintaining airworthiness and an operator can not fly an airplane that is unairworthy in any fashion per the FARs.

I'm ready! Shoot back. Lol

[ArtVandelay]

Well... not exactly. The FARs make no provision for an A&P or AI to ground a plane and essentially take it as a hostage. But the rules do have other protections that help guide us from flying unairworthy aircraft.

I'm ready! Shoot back. Lol

The moment you tell the IA this is an annual, then the plane is grounded till it's signed off, correct?
So if I'm the owner, you can prebuy, pull all the panels provided:
You pay to put it back together, I would want this in writing since most people instruct their mechanic to stop if they find a major issue.
And if you want to convert the prebuy into an annual, you have to wait for the sale to be completed.
In your original post you said you should just do an annual, what I'm saying is it will be a 3 step process, prebuy, sale complete, annual. I don't even know what the legalities of a non owner authorizing a annual is.

[salty]

I would think the plane isn't grounded until the previous annual is no longer current. Well, excepting that if you as the owner know there is an airworthiness issue, then you should ground the plane - but it's not the shop's responsibility.

Edited April 15, 2017 by salty

[gsxrpilot]

An annual's not an annual until it's signed off in the log book. There might be a case to be made for getting your bird in for annual before the last one expires. That way if you need to move it for specialized work, or just a second opinion, it's still up to the owner/PIC to determine airworthiness.

If the annual has expired, I don't believe it can be declared airworthy until an AI says so.

Regarding a PPI, I'd consult with the shop ahead of time and let them know that assuming the PPI goes well, that'd you'd like to come out with a fresh annual. Therefore as they are going through the plane for the PPI, anything that would also be done during an annual should be noted so it doesn't have to be repeated for the annual sign off. Obviously there will be PPI items that don't have anything to do with an Annual. Just as there are also items required by the annual that are not part of the PPI and will have to be completed after. But a good PPI and Annual should overlap enough to make it worth while to combine the two in many situations.

The last plane I bought was done this way. It was out of annual and therefore couldn't be flown without the AI sign off. I paid for a PPI moving toward a full annual assuming everything went well. The shop quoted me the price of the PPI/Annual assuming no additional work was required. I instructed them to call me if they came upon any additional work required. In the end, I paid the base rate plus costs to re-certify the O2 bottle, and some brake pads. At any point I didn't like what was happening, I could have stopped work and paid costs up to that point. 

[DVA]

The moment you tell the IA this is an annual, then the plane is grounded till it's signed off, correct?

 

No. The Annual has nothing to do with airworthiness. The moment that a mechanic, an IA, the owner, the pilot, or the guy who works at the 7-11 points out an issue that renders the aircraft unairworthy, according to 91.7:

 

No person may operate a civil aircraft unless it is in an airworthy

 

The pilot in command of a civil aircraft is responsible for determining whether that aircraft is in condition for safe flight. The pilot in command shall discontinue the flight when unairworthy mechanical, electrical, or structural conditions occur.

 

There is no grace period. It is immediate.

 

That said, the laws are very clear but are often ignored, as in the examples I cited in my last post.

 

The only exception is an AD where there may be a FAA allowed grace period to conform. However some critical ADs are also immediate.

 

If an airplane is unairworthy it cannot be flown, until it is repaired and log entry is made by an appropriate person or its issued a ferry permit by the FAA to allow it to be relocated for repair.

 

[Andy95W]

Yes, but the source can and should be considered.

If the 7-11 guy points at your Mooney and says, "Your airplane's broken.  The tail's on backwards."  I'm pretty sure you can still consider it airworthy.

[ArtVandelay]

 No. The Annual has nothing to do with airworthiness. The moment that a mechanic, an IA, the owner, the pilot, or the guy who works at the 7-11 points out an issue that renders the aircraft unairworthy, according to 91.7:
 
No person may operate a civil aircraft unless it is in an airworthy
 
The pilot in command of a civil aircraft is responsible for determining whether that aircraft is in condition for safe flight. The pilot in command shall discontinue the flight when unairworthy mechanical, electrical, or structural conditions occur.
 
There is no grace period. It is immediate.
 
That said, the laws are very clear but are often ignored, as in the examples I cited in my last post.
 
The only exception is an AD where there may be a FAA allowed grace period to conform. However some critical ADs are also immediate.
 
If an airplane is unairworthy it cannot be flown, until it is repaired and log entry is made by an appropriate person or its issued a ferry permit by the FAA to allow it to be relocated for repair.
 

I didn't say anything about airworthiness, I said it was grounded, Mike Busch was very clear about this, once a annual is started, the aircraft is grounded till annual is completed with IAs signature.

[gsxrpilot]

1 hour ago, teejayevans said:

I didn't say anything about airworthiness, I said it was grounded, Mike Busch was very clear about this, once a annual is started, the aircraft is grounded till annual is completed with IAs signature.

Do you have a link for Mike's position on this? I'd like to understand the context.

If my annual is due the 31st of July, and I have it in a shop for the annual in June. The annual has started and compression checks are done and oil has been changed but nothing else. The IA comes down sick and will be out for the next two weeks. Are you telling me that I couldn't pull the plane out of the shop, pay for the work done, and fly it to another shop to do the annual? I would think that I could.

On a somewhat related note, I had an A&P (not AI) tell me my airplane was not airworthy. It was still within annual. On the advice of three other AI's, I went ahead and flew the plane to another shop for some repairs. As the owner/PIC, I believe it was up to me to declare the plane airworthy or not. (I'll refrain from posting the details here)

[carusoam]

Think about this for a bit...

Sounds like there is some technicality in this.

1) PPIs don't get logged.  There is a solid reason for this.

2) it can be turned into an annual by passing all the requirements for an annual.

3) there is only a logbook entry made regarding the annual If that was the direction you continue on...

4) So you are having a PPI done and the imaginary wankel nut is missing.  An unfortunate and unexpected event.

- you no longer want the plane. The nut is too expensive for your budget?

- you advise the owner regarding the missing nut. Have to to break the purchase agreement?

- your purchase agreement you wrote with the owner said the plane must be in AW condition...

- technically it's not.

- there is nothing documented in the logs.

- what the owner does next is somewhat up to him. His plane.  His problem. Fortunately, he is now aware of the situation.

5) where this becomes a challenge... there are real situations where the plane can become un-airworthy over time but won't be noticed until the plane visits a knowledgeable mechanic.

6) this is why many ragged Mooneys are not allowed to go very far for their PPI.

7) Imagine taking a ragged Mooney accross the country to see DMax because someone on the Internet said DMax is the best.

8) DMax can put together two lists one of AW issues and one of non-AW issues.

9) the potential new owner has ripped open a can of worms. Let the cat out of the bag...

10) it's a real problem on two levels... the plane is technically not AW and it is very far from home.

11) to get it home may require a ferry permit, if possible.

12) one thing for sure, the existing owner isn't going to be happy with the surprise finding.

13) it is going to cost more to get it sold.

14) when you are writing your purchase agreement, the above are a few of the things to have in mind. Below are more examples...

15) ragged Cherokee: I had my mechanic do the PPI.  At the next annual I know what was acceptable to him based on the PPI.  It failed the PPI. We parted company. The owner got to fly it back home 25miles. (Bent wing ribs)

16) Aged M20C: my mechanic had a few annuals in its log. The PPI was done independently.  The next annual was done again by my mechanic...

17) Pristine M20R: MSC annuals throughout. PPI done at another MSC. Very low risk of something going wrong.

18) There is always going to be some risk the plane can be in un-AW condition.  If you are selling the plane don't let that happen.  If you are buying the plane, don't take on the risk without knowing what you are taking on.

19) planning on using this as a negotiating tool? Not going to end well. Extracting money from an uninterested seller is not a negotiating tool.

20) Ask yourself....Do you want to fly, or do you want to fix a plane?

Some PP ideas, not a plane sales guy or mechanic.

Imaginary Wankel nuts for sale... 1amu! 

Best regards,

-a-

Edited April 16, 2017 by carusoam

[gsxrpilot]

57 minutes ago, carusoam said:

7) Imagine taking a ragged Mooney accross the country to see DMax because someone on the Internet said DMax is the best.

8) DMax can put together two lists one of AW issues and one of non-AW issues.

9) the potential new owner has ripped open a can of worms. Let the cat out of the bag...

10) it's a real problem on two levels... the plane is technically not AW and it is very far from home.

11) to get it home may require a ferry permit, if possible.

I bought my first Mooney with a PPI from DMax. It was about a 1.5 hour flight to his shop.  Don produced a list of AW issues and sent it to me. But as nothing had been put in the log books, the plane was not grounded. The seller could have flown the it home at my expense (fuel), deal is off, deposit returned. The plane was still in annual. Seller and I negotiated over the estimate for the AW issues, I bought the plane, Don fixed everything on the list.

There was never any risk that regardless of Don's recommendation, the plane would be grounded at his shop.

[Ratherbflying]

4 hours ago, gsxrpilot said:

Do you have a link for Mike's position on this? I'd like to understand the context.

If my annual is due the 31st of July, and I have it in a shop for the annual in June. The annual has started and compression checks are done and oil has been changed but nothing else. The IA comes down sick and will be out for the next two weeks. Are you telling me that I couldn't pull the plane out of the shop, pay for the work done, and fly it to another shop to do the annual? I would think that I could.

On a somewhat related note, I had an A&P (not AI) tell me my airplane was not airworthy. It was still within annual. On the advice of three other AI's, I went ahead and flew the plane to another shop for some repairs. As the owner/PIC, I believe it was up to me to declare the plane airworthy or not. (I'll refrain from posting the details here)

https://www.savvyaviation.com/wp-content/uploads/articles_eaa/EAA_2014-11_prebuy-dos-and-donts.pdf

From the article:

The purpose of an annual inspection (defined by FAR §43.15) is to identify all airworthiness discrepancies, whether trivial discrepancies that cost $50 to cor- rect or major catastrophes that cost $50,000 to resolve. Once started, an annual inspection must continue to completion of all inspection checklist items, and always results in a logbook entry (per FAR §43.11) that declares the aircraft air- worthy or unairworthy. 

[salty]

I don't see anything in 43.15 that says an inspection must be completed and logged once started. What if the mechanic dies? The inspection can never be completed.

I think there is an assumption here that the inspection hasn't begun until the plane is no longer covered by the previous year's annual.

[Yetti]

I think the opening Paragraph of 43.11.   " The person approving or disapproving for return to service an aircraft, airframe, aircraft engine, propeller, appliance, or component part after any inspection performed in accordance with part 91, 125, § 135.411(a)(1), or § 135.419 shall make an entry in the maintenance record of that equipment containing the following information: "

The question is when is it out of service?  After the last day of the month of current annual or does inspecting it take it out of service?

[Yetti]

It's like this. To replace the starter you have to take off the alternator.  The log entry will only be that the starter was R&R.  OR the alternator belt. Requires the prop to be removed and replaced.  But the log entry will only be replaced belt.

[DVA]

I didn't say anything about airworthiness, I said it was grounded, Mike Busch was very clear about this, once a annual is started, the aircraft is grounded till annual is completed with IAs signature.

With all due respect you are taking a correct quote used in a different situation and placed it out of context in this thread.

Here's when Mike's paragraph is right.

If the Annual has *expired*, the airplane is grounded by FAA law. So the only way to get it legally back in the air (sans a Ferry Permit) is to complete a full Annual Inspection that results in any necessary repairs and contains a log book entry stating it is airworthy.

IF an "Annual" is started before the last Annual is due, and for whatever reason you want it to stop - mechanic dies, you don't like the mechanic suddenly, you don't like the popcorn - anything, you have the right to ask them to put the plane back together (pay for their work) and you can fly it away. Unless an unairworthy issue was discover!

IF a "Pre-buy" (however defined) is started and for whatever reason you want it to stop - mechanic dies, you don't like the mechanic suddenly, you don't like the popcorn - anything, you have the right to ask them to put the plane back together (pay for their work) and you can fly it away. Unless an unairworthy issue was discover!

What I am trying to say is that it doesn't matter what you call the "Inspection" - call it a pre-buy, a Annual, a Super Annual or even your own pre-flight walk a round - if an item is found by anyone that makes that airplane unairworthy it cannot be legally flown by any operator until that unairworthy item is fixed or a Ferry Permit is issued.

There is no ambiguity in FAR 91.7(a) here. There are no grace periods. And a log book entry or not does not change the fact that the issue exists.

That said, please refer back to my original post where I illustrate that rule is often broken ***based on how unairworthy the problem really is *** and as such I provided my opinion on how to use the law to the buyers and sellers advantage.

[DVA]

On a somewhat related note, I had an A&P (not AI) tell me my airplane was not airworthy. It was still within annual. On the advice of three other AI's, I went ahead and flew the plane to another shop for some repairs. As the owner/PIC, I believe it was up to me to declare the plane airworthy or not. (I'll refrain from posting the details here)

I'm glad you brought this up. It helps to illustrate what I am trying to illustrate.

First the facts. You are correct that the final judge of "safe operation" is the PIC. But others along with the PIC or owner have the ability to call out "airworthiness", such as an A&P, an IA, the FAA, or the PIC.

"The pilot in command of a civil aircraft is responsible for determining whether that aircraft is in condition for safe flight." .... "The pilot in command shall discontinue the flight when unairworthy mechanical, electrical, or structural conditions occur."

What defines airworthy? FAR 3:5(a) gives us guidance to "airworthy" as meaning the aircraft conforms to its type design and is in a condition for safe operation.

You can dig further and further for more definition but type design means like from the factory as new, including any legal modifications, such as STCs as long as those STCs conform to their original design as well.

So, to your comment that you believe it was up to you to make the fly no fly decision. I agree. But, were you advised by the mechanic that in his view the aircraft was unairworthy? He has a legal say here.

If so, was he right? Because if in fact that aircraft was truly unairworthy at that time flying it as you did without a Ferry Permit would be illegal. Even if you disagreed with him.

If you, as the Owner judged that he was wrong, and if in fact you were right and the aircraft was airworthy, then you were perfectly legal. Good job!

In the end it's as simple as that. Which in the end is not all that simple.

[Yetti]

What I have found is that airworthy has different meanings to different people.  My standard of airworthy is higher that mechanics in the past that have worked on my plane.