Any insight as to why M10 was cancelled?

[Tommy]

18 minutes ago, thinwing said:

Ha Ha..no they don't Tommy! They just laugh themselves silly when they here you go on!

Oh look who is here to pick a fight?

[zaitcev]

On 4/12/2017 at 6:52 PM, aviatoreb said:

So in WWII they would train from scratch pilots all the way to the P51 and deploy them awfully fast.  

How is training philosophy today compare to that?  How are today's state of the art platforms as compared to the P51 in terms of difficulty to fly?

The accident rate per 100,000 hours flown is what you want to look at for explanations. During the WWII, they were losing more men to training accidents than to enemy action. Try doing this today, 1 in 100 will fly.

Edited April 14, 2017 by zaitcev

[Tommy]

11 hours ago, kevinw said:

My $.02 is Mooney needs to develop a Cirrus killer. Figure out a way to increase useful load and add a chute to an already amazing airframe. Whether any of us agree with the chute or not is immaterial; it sells airplanes, period. At the end of the day that is all that matters.

I think a Cirrus Killer will be a Mooney M20J/K Ultra (2-door) with parachute (to satisfy our better half) and brand new interior that looks more like a BMW / Mercedes interior (to satisfy our better half). M20J/K is for pricing advantage and fuel economy. Ultra for convenience. Parachute for obvious reason. The interior is based on 60s and 70s design and that's getting old.

Yes it's all superficial but just remember who are the people that can afford to buy a new plane these days? 

[aviatoreb]

9 hours ago, Tommy said:

The interior is based on 60s and 70s design and that's getting old.

What?  You don't like the ashtray?

[Tommy]

Just now, aviatoreb said:

What?  You don't like the ashtray?

 that can stay if it comes with two boxes of finest cuban cigar and a fire extinguisher 

 

[Shadrach]

On 4/13/2017 at 2:45 AM, Hyett6420 said:

Oh for ffs, sorry to be blunt but noone cares outside of the US where the planes are built. You all happily buy Embraer jets, airbuses etc.  This "has to be built in the USA" is such 1950s nonsense.

Europe pilots got really mad at friedrichshafen (bigger than sun and fun by a mile)  as Mooney were not there.  Piper yes, cessna, yes, Cirrus yes, in fact all the majors, but not Mooney.  Mooneys problem is they cant market their way out of a paperbag.  Good product, crap marketting, aka Lotus v microsoft.  They didnt even turn up with a cabin mockup.  Their "Mooney" rep in Europe (note  they only have one for 500 million people) was wearing a Piper jacket and selling the Matrix to everyone.  Cirrus salesmen were going on about thenjet and the fact their planes have a parachute, i even spoke to a Mooney driver who was sitting in the jet, good discussion about what bollocks the salesman had just told them about Cirrus aircraft.  

Cirrus sell planes like car salesmen, Mooney are nowhere to be seen.

Andrew - I am surprised to see you perpetuating the ridiculous Euro-stereotype of Americans.  This country is the most global of all market places. The data does not support the notion that America is full of isolationists preaching some backwards 1950s style patriotism (whatever that is).  We have always bought foreign products in large quantities and still do. We buy Embraer and Airbus because they are quality products with good support and consistent QC.  We buy more than half of our automobiles from foreign companies.

The stereotype you seem to be applying may well be prevalent within a 100ml radius of Detroit, but so what?   100 miles or so northwest of your posh London postal code in the West Midlands there are loads of folks that exhibit the very same nationalist stereotypes that you're attempting to attribute to most Americans.  I don't blame those people for feeling that way, their great grand parents were the "work shop of the world" and now that that is gone forever it's a bitter pill to swallow.  The issue is not that we (Americans) don't want foreign products made in foreign countries, it's that we have had real and costly issues with Chinese manufacturing. From improperly cured lumber to turning down the shielding gas on steel welds...QC has been a big problem.  I have been on the receiving side of 1000s of units of injection molded plastics that don't fit together as they should. Indeed, things are improving, but the idea that having concerns about Chinese manufacturing is somehow driven by some misplaced patriotism rather than by...oh I don't know a history of importing disintegrating tires, lead paint on toys, diethyline glycol in toothpaste etc...etc...or perhaps it's just that Americans are all inherently racist against the Chinese people?

I think it odd that Americans typically go out of there way to portray and perceive Brits at their best - as plucky people of grit (stiff upper lip...keep calm and...) balanced with sophistication (Savile Row, Aston Martin, Burberry). Brits on the other hand tend to portray Americans at their worst. As though we are a monolith of knuckle dragging, pick up truck driving, troglodytes that have never left our own neighborhoods. 

To your second point.  Why should Mooney show up at Friedrichshafen?  To facilitate sales in burgeoning European GA market?  If so, I am confused???  Your Mooney is 1 of 34 Mooney aircraft registered in the whole of the UK, the newest of which is a 1994 model. Not exactly a sales rich environment for Mooney.  Is there some other country in Continental Europe where GA is flourishing more?  Where do Diamond and Tecnam sell most of their aircraft (pretty sure I can guess without looking it up)?   I have spent a great deal of time in Europe.  Most recently Italy and the UK. In 21 days of driving and hiking Italy with my father and brother (both pilots as well) we counted 3 GA aircraft in flight during our whole trip (I typically see several more than that in a day here).  One appeared to be an ag-plane returning from spraying crops, one a fixed gear piper and the other appeared to be a very small, fixed gear, rotax powered light sport.  We saw no airborne GA aircraft in and around London (not a huge surprise).    

If only Mooney were manufactured in the UK or the EU, then things might be done the European way.  MPs could pass legislation mandating that Mooney present at Friedrichshafen, then subsidize the cost (loss) to the company with tax revenue (or debt) and proclaim it a great victory for the people and the economy...

To your third point, I agree that Cirrus has it all over Mooney in the marketing department.

 

[Mcstealth]

Mooney is going to announce something new next year. My gut says it will not be targeting the Cirrus. 

Okay Nobody, Tommy, Andy. Fire away.  

 

[neilpilot]

4 minutes ago, Mcstealth said:

Mooney is going to announce something new next year. My gut says it will not be targeting the Cirrus. 

Okay Nobody, Tommy, Andy. Fire away.  

 

Bankrupt again?

[Mcstealth]

13 minutes ago, neilpilot said:

Bankrupt again?

Right. Let's pray they make it to the next year. I do know they have all the planes that are partially pre-assembled sold. 

[cliffy]

OK, how about a point of pure speculation?

If one goes back to my posts of over a year ago you will see I was speculating on what the factory was going to bring out when we had the last round of "who knows".

At that time I mentioned that at a flyin Mooney showed a picture of a Mooney but with perfectly smooth skin (a la composite material). I said then that once you have the outer surface defined in CAD/CAM, to fill in the structure is easy. Also, once you have the outer surface defined, refining it for best fluid dynamics is only a computer away before build. 

SO my point here is-

Could the M10 have been a prelude to something else just to get the process nailed down? Say like a composite airframe Mooney?

We already have a composite cabin surface now with 2 doors, structure and tail cone can't be that hard of a leap. Composite wing design has been around since Rutan and the VariEasi. 

At some point, to be competitive financially and aesthetically, they're going to have to go composite. That's where the market is. 1930s and 40s bent aluminum and rivets won't cut it anymore in this class. But then you have certification issues. Now, maybe with the easing of Part 23 it might be feasible.    

 

[Jerry 5TJ]

36 minutes ago, Hyett6420 said:

.....If citrus , piper and Cessna all thought it was worth turning up for at Fired rick and shaft him why didn't Mooney......

..... sell well in Germany, Austria and Switzerland historically, fried rick and shaft him is in Germany.....

I don't think Fried Rick is in Germany, not since 1945 anyway.

Edited April 15, 2017 by Jerry 5TJ

[Mcstealth]

5 minutes ago, cliffy said:

 

At that time I mentioned that at a flyin Mooney showed a picture of a Mooney but with perfectly smooth skin (a la composite material). I said then that once you have the outer surface defined in CAD/CAM, to fill in the structure is easy. Also, once you have the outer surface defined, refining it for best fluid dynamics is only a computer away before build. 

 

Could the M10 have been a prelude to something else just to get the process nailed down? Say like a composite airframe Mooney?

 

I asked the last time around if Mooney went the way TBM did, jumping to the 900 series because of fluid dynamics testing. The consensus was it was cost prohibitive. 

 

 

[gsengle]

Friedrichshafen ist am Bodensee in Deutschland. Fried Rick sounds like a fried chicken chain in the Deep South...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[MyNameIsNobody]

On 4/13/2017 at 8:45 PM, thinwing said:

Ha Ha..no they don't Tommy! They just laugh themselves silly when they here you go on!

To quote Jeff Spicolli-"Hey Bud, What's your problem"?

[MyNameIsNobody]

3 hours ago, Mcstealth said:

Mooney is going to announce something new next year. My gut says it will not be targeting the Cirrus. 

Okay Nobody, Tommy, Andy. Fire away.  

 

Just not at all "excited".  Pleased if Mooney succeeds, but they already made my perfect airplane-201 with removeable/fold down rear seats.  If I were to buy another plane, and I am not, as I love my plane for my empty nester mission...It would be a 201 that I would panel/interior/paint the way I want it.  $150k would get that done.  

Three quarters of a million dollars for a new Mooney is just goofy to me.  Even if I could, I wouldn't.

I liked the concept of the M10 and thought a trainer in China trickling back into US as a trainer would be "Good for Mooney".  The reasons for ceasing production beyond proof of concept are shrouded in mystery.

We shall see.  I doubt China will let Mooney go under.  That said there is a little history with the Mooney brand and Chapter 11.

A Lynx for ADSB compliance, Sabre Cowl Mod and Paint would be my "wants" for "Mooney-talk".

I will let the rude late model blowhards get excited about latest and greatest from Kerrville.

 

[fantom]

On Friday, April 14, 2017 at 3:44 PM, Shadrach said:

We buy Embraer and Airbus because they are quality products with good support and consistent QC

Embraer - OK, but Airbus - not for me.

If it ain't Boeing, I ain't going.

[fantom]

On Thursday, April 13, 2017 at 10:24 PM, zaitcev said:

The accident rate per 100,000 hours flown is what you want to look at for explanations. During the WWII, they were losing more men to training accidents than to enemy action.....

This is very far from accurate....except for the Navy, possibly

Training could be dangerous, we were in a hurry to save the world afterall , but training accidents paled when compared to combat!

B-26's in Tampa Bay were a problem, until the AAF figured out how the fly them (more experienced pilots).

Total American Air Force losses worldwide during World War II: 27,694 aircraft, including 8,314 heavy bombers, 1,623 medium and light bombers, and 8,481 fighters as destroyed in combat. The 8th Air Force alone, over Europe, lost more men KIA, than the Marines did throughout the war.

America lost about 405,000 men, almost 300,000 in combat, of which about 35,000 were Army Air Force.

Now back to Mooney stuff.............

[Jerry 5TJ]

3 hours ago, Hyett6420 said:

So where is it then?

Poland. 

Now known as Smażenie Ryszard.

[Larry]

3 hours ago, fantom said:

Embraer - OK, but Airbus - not for me.

If it ain't Boeing, I ain't going.

Watch out.  Cliffy talks about Airbus all the time, so he must think highly of them.

[cliffy]

Larry, what are you smoking? :-) :-)

I have one handle that says- 727737757pilot!  

On all of those, both control columns move in unison and if you push the go levers all the way forward the engines go all the way to max power with no questions   :-) :-) :-)

I know you're just pulling my leg

Now back to the originally scheduled program 

[flyboy0681]

6 hours ago, fantom said:

This is very far from accurate....except for the Navy, possibly

Training could be dangerous, we were in a hurry to save the world afterall , but training accidents paled when compared to combat!

B-26's in Tampa Bay were a problem, until the AAF figured out how the fly them (more experienced pilots).

Total American Air Force losses worldwide during World War II: 27,694 aircraft, including 8,314 heavy bombers, 1,623 medium and light bombers, and 8,481 fighters as destroyed in combat. The 8th Air Force alone, over Europe, lost more men KIA, than the Marines did throughout the war.

America lost about 405,000 men, almost 300,000 in combat, of which about 35,000 were Army Air Force.

Now back to Mooney stuff.............

Very good reporting. My wife and I took the Mooney to New Orleans for the weekend and visited the WW II museum today. The numbers you recited are close to what I read throughout the day at various exhibits. The Boeing airplane pavilion was pretty good as well, the collection includes a B-17, B-25 Mitchell,  a P-51 Mustang and a few other goodies. Well worth the visit.

 

 

[Tommy]

C'mon! A pie chart of US auto market?! Globalisation vs Isolationism?! Polish Fried Chicken? Only 30+ Mooneys in UK? 

Okay, is it just me or everyone else here think this is going out of control and we need to close the thread NOW (yelling)?

[Tommy]

Look guys,

Since I speak fluent mandarin so if you all CBs donate $100 to my personal account, I will gladly pick up my phone and ring my friend Dr. Jerry Chen and have some Chinese man-to-man talk and settle the scores for you guys!

[DonMuncy]

I've never blocked anyone's posts before. Can someone tell me how to do that.

[DonMuncy]

Thanks Jim