ADS-B Out/In solutions for WAAS and non-WAAS Mooneys

[N6758N]

6 minutes ago, 231LV said:

Let me do an update to this thread since I have done more research and am scheduled for the plane to go into the shop next Monday. First, after discussing my needs/concerns with the avionics shop manager, I have elected to do the following: upgrade my current Garmin 430 to WAAS...around $5 AMU's. Upgrade my Garmin GTX 330 to 1090 ES..around $2 AMU's plus tax takes me close to $8...I get ADS-B In/Out, interface with iPad for traffic and I am compliant with 2020. Of course, that got me to thinking about where I want to be in the future and is this the most efficient path forward...first off, the Boss, "La Patrona", SWMBO "She Who Must Be Obeyed" has informed me that she does not like the look of twin Aspen 1000's in the panel...she wants something "flatter"....ie, an MFD screen. Since I was originally planning to go with a second Aspen (already have the first installed) and the installed price for that second unit is about $16 AMU's, I'm now wondering about removing the Aspen and replacing it with a G500 or GTN 750 instead. I'm driving a Century 41 A/P so that should not present a problem with the Garmin setup and La Patrona likes the look of the Garmin over the twin Aspens. Before I call the shop manager to discuss "options" I'm wondering if anyone else is where or has been where I am at now and can offer their thoughts?....Oh...as a rehash...I am IFR certified and maintain currency but don't do much actual IMC...trips are cross country, out of the country, occasionally and short 1  to 3 hour hops around the southwest (where we live)

5 AMUs to upgrade a 430 to WAAS is a lot, i think MSRP is around $3,500 and the installation is next to nothing, even if they have to replace your coax along with the antenna it shouldn't be more than 4-5 hrs of labor. I did the same upgrade path as you with my 430 to WAAS and 330 to ES and I am very happy with it. I still get to see quite a lot of traffic displayed on the 430 despite only being TIS. Have you thought about getting the work done in a tax-free aviation state to save some costs?

[RLCarter]

What do you guys think of This? Seems simple if they can get it approved for certified AC

[kerry]

56 minutes ago, RLCarter said:

What do you guys think of This? Seems simple if they can get it approved for certified AC

I like it!  I just watched it on youtube.  I really like the BOM.  It's the bomb!

[RLCarter]

Levil seems to have got it, put it all in one box and go

[StevenL757]

On 3/26/2017 at 6:01 PM, gsengle said:

Nice! Any idea how dual Aspen would compare to say a G500 instillation? Cost wise?
 

The G500 (with a GAD43e) is about the same or maybe a little bit cheaper than a dual-screen Aspen with an EA100.  And you get more real estate with the G500...not to mention reliability.

[Marauder]

1 minute ago, StevenL757 said:

not to mention reliability.

Prove it.

[N6758N]

1 minute ago, Marauder said:

Prove it.

x2. With the aspen you get two seperate displays. Each has their own power source and pitot and static inputs. If you lose one screen then you get reversion mode to display data on the other screen. With the G500, all it takes is one bad wire to take out the entire thing, and yes I have seen it happen...

[Marauder]

The G500 (with a GAD43e) is about the same or maybe a little bit cheaper than a dual-screen Aspen with an EA100.  And you get more real estate with the G500...not to mention reliability.

Steven -- it is clear we have decided upon different technologies for our planes. It is great we have options that we didn't in the past. In my case, owning a plane without a backup electrical system, I wanted a system that could continue on when the plane's electrons might not. As I indicated in prior threads, I evaluated both options and elected to go with the Aspens because the Garmin G500 did not offer an electrical backup. At the time I was researching glass, Garmin also hadn't introduced the GAD-43e and it would have eliminated interfacing with a bunch of my analog avionics.

What I do take exception to are comments about reliability when no MTBF has ever been published by the manufacturers of these two technologies (trust me, I looked for them). As someone who works in the electronics industry, "reliability" is affected by a number of factors. These include poor installations, user induced problems, abuse (guess what, pushing on a non-touchscreen will make it fail), supplier quality issues -- including not meeting the OEM's design specs and the manufacturing defects that may occur.

In the case of Aspen, they had an infant mortality problem when they first introduced the Aspen PFD. They discovered the issue behind the IM and corrected. Unfortunately, being the small community we are, news traveled fast and we are great at pointing out history, even if the future creates a new history.

There is some MTBF data that Sandia published on their glass. To compare even older technologies, Sandel's SN4550 ADI for example, is rated at 10,000 hours MTBF. To contrast that with a mechanical product from the same age bracket, from Mid-Continent's own marketing; "Mid-Continent's 4200 features the most advanced design, components, and manufacturing available to create a highly reliable instrument. The MTBF of the 4200 is 2,500 hours.". I'll translate for you "glass good, mechanical not so good". But in all honesty, most GA pilots are lucky to fly 100 hours per year. This would mean if you stayed with a mechanical AI, you might not see an AI failure in 25 years! 100 years if you went glass and were fortunate to live so long.

Here is some reading on electronic failure terms:

http://www.bb-elec.com/Learning-Center/All-White-Papers/Fiber/MTBF,-MTTR,-MTTF,-FIT-Explanation-of-Terms/MTBF-MTTR-MTTF-FIT-10262012-pdf.pdf

And some additional light reading for you. Also note who one of the authors is: 

http://awin.aviationweek.com/portals/awin/pdfs/BCAHandbook/BCA_2014_Purchase_Planning_Handbook_A.pdf   Garmin 500 Specs: https://buy.garmin.com/en-US/US/p/63598#specs Aspen 2000 Specs: http://www.aspenavionics.com/products/general-aviation/evolution-2000

[231LV]

4 hours ago, N6758N said:

5 AMUs to upgrade a 430 to WAAS is a lot, i think MSRP is around $3,500 and the installation is next to nothing, even if they have to replace your coax along with the antenna it shouldn't be more than 4-5 hrs of labor. I did the same upgrade path as you with my 430 to WAAS and 330 to ES and I am very happy with it. I still get to see quite a lot of traffic displayed on the 430 despite only being TIS. Have you thought about getting the work done in a tax-free aviation state to save some costs?

Well, the cost and inconvenience of flying out of state, getting a round trip airline ticket and all that will be eaten up by the delta between what I am being charged and a lower, out of state shop...maybe.

[TTaylor]

4 hours ago, RLCarter said:

What do you guys think of This? Seems simple if they can get it approved for certified AC

I have been watching since they announced it. So far no price and no details on certification.

[orionflt]

when i updated my 430 to was many years ago it cost me $1500.00 plus an update. my GTX 330 is out right now getting updated that is costing me $1200.00, with shipping and software updates for the 430 it is just over $1300.00

Seems a little steep unless he is buying a previously updated 430 to install.

Brian

[231LV]

Just now, orionflt said:

when i updated my 430 to was many years ago it cost me $1500.00 plus an update. my GTX 330 is out right now getting updated that is costing me $1200.00, with shipping and software updates for the 430 it is just over $1300.00

Seems a little steep unless he is buying a previously updated 430 to install.

Brian

Nope...I have my existing unit that will be pulled for upgrade....BUT I will negotiate with the avionics manager...thanks all!!

[orionflt]

I did forget that they had to change out my antenna so that will add some more cost, but only a couple of hours labor.

brian

[orionflt]

just looked at the current WAAS upgrade cost...$3995.00....... glad i did it when it first came out. guess the estimate is actually right in the ball park. sorry for the outdated info.

Brian

[KSMooniac]

Yikes! Back in 2007 I got two units updated, out-the-door for $3400. Glad I did it.

Sent from my LG-LS997 using Tapatalk

[tigers2007]

If you can still sell it for 4k and take the 4k you would have spent, an Avidyne or GTN isnt that far away. Mine is at the shop being torn apart as I type this for a GTN, Lynx, and six-pack panel. 21-22 AMU's. Minus $500 rebate, minus value of GTX327 and GNC300. So I'll get 2-3 AMU's back. If you have some nice radios already, you can get a great deal on a GTN625 and GTX345 for 14 AMU installed. Sell your 430 and 330 for 5 AMU and get .5 AMU rebate. So $14k plus tax minus $5500 net $8500 for some nice fancy fresh and modern equipment.


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[RLCarter]

1 hour ago, TTaylor said:

I have been watching since they announced it. So far no price and no details on certification.

There is a video (I'll find it) and the daughter said it would retail around $1500.00

[carusoam]

Ilevil website if that is what you need...

http://aviation.levil.com/home.html?gclid=CjwKEAjw3KDIBRCz0KvZlJ7k4TgSJABDqOK70c-q1-2NWvCpfkR2050ArN56i5H3GHnCPBZDzrQKGhoC69Xw_wcB

Best regards,

-a-

[RLCarter]

Levil @ FNS

[TTaylor]

12 minutes ago, RLCarter said:

Levil @ FNS

Thanks.  I just got the latest newsletter from them.  Looks like they are looking for 5 experimental aircraft to test them.

[kerry]

They were selling the Levin for $900 at SNF and retail for $1500.  On the YouTube video I thought she said the BOM was certified.

[Jeff_S]

Um, I may be wrong about this, but I don't believe upgrading your GTX 330 to the ES model will give you ADS-B In.  I just checked the Garmin web site to be sure, and it seems to confirm this.  The ADS-B In solution in this case is the GTX 345.  If I'm wrong, feel free to enlighten me, but I want to make sure you're getting what you need.

[Marauder]

Um, I may be wrong about this, but I don't believe upgrading your GTX 330 to the ES model will give you ADS-B In.  I just checked the Garmin web site to be sure, and it seems to confirm this.  The ADS-B In solution in this case is the GTX 345.  If I'm wrong, feel free to enlighten me, but I want to make sure you're getting what you need.

You're right. The 330ES will meet the mandate requirements by producing only the "out" signal required of ADS-B compliance. To get the "in" will need something else.

The GTX-345, GDL-88 will produce both the out and in capabilities on the certified boxes. The 345 will feed a portable (iPad, 796, etc.) for traffic and weather or they could go with the 330ES and get weather & traffic on their portables with a GDL-39, Stratus, etc. That won't show up on the certified boxes.


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[231LV]

27 minutes ago, Marauder said:

 

You're right. The 330ES will meet the mandate requirements by producing only the "out" signal required of ADS-B compliance. To get the "in" will need something else.

The GTX-345, GDL-88 will produce both the out and in capabilities on the certified boxes. The 345 will feed a portable (iPad, 796, etc.) for traffic and weather or they could go with the 330ES and get weather & traffic on their portables with a GDL-39, Stratus, etc. That won't show up on the certified boxes.


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Hmmm.....I will have to verify....avionics shop manager told me I could get In/Out with GTX 330 upgrade.

[N6758N]

16 hours ago, orionflt said:

just looked at the current WAAS upgrade cost...$3995.00....... glad i did it when it first came out. guess the estimate is actually right in the ball park. sorry for the outdated info.

Brian

Holy crap! I can't believe how much its gone up, I think a year ago it was 3,500. I won't tell you what I paid for mine since it was dealer cost...I guess Garmin figures more people will just jump to the 650 instead of shelling out all the cash for a simple upgrade.