Bladders are orphaned

[moosebreath]

O&N is out of business and the STC is now owned by Griggs Aircraft.

Griggs appears to be totally uninterested in supporting existing bladder installations or selling more.  My shop called a week ago with a couple of questions and a request for parts for my one year old installation.  They were basically told it was not Griggs problem and to deal with it themselves. So much for the five year warranty ...

It appears the bladder vs reseal discussion is over due to lack of availability of bladders.

 

[rbridges]

That's not good to hear. 

[peevee]

I suppose that means the cost to reseal will go up as well. 

[Bob_Belville]

I hope that's not the whole and final story. I sent Griggs a couple of email and gotten no response. Marauder had had some conversation when the change was first transacted and was optimistic. Perhaps they'll sell the STC to someone interested in using it. I know Joey Cole has installed several, probably other MSC have as well. The fuel cells themselves are manufactured in CA.

[Marauder]

When I spoke with them earlier this year they seemed to willing to engage. Perhaps something has changed since then. I will send Terry H a message. He was working with them recently in installing bladders in his Mooney (he is an IA).

If they aren't interested in keeping the business going, perhaps they will sell the STC to a company that will.


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[Bob_Belville]

This company in Santa Fe Springs CA (greater LA) makes bladders for Cessna and other models as well as war birds. No mention of Mooney but they might be the supplier to O&N. 

www.aerotechservicesinc.com

[rbridges]

Just now, bluehighwayflyer said:

If memory serves that is indeed O&N's bladder manufacturer, Bob. Standard practice is for bladder manufacturers to replicate bladders as owner produced parts just like McFarlane does with engine controls. If Griggs stops supporting the STC that is what will happen. Replacement parts are rarely needed and are largely standard parts anyway. The bummer will be  the lack of availability for new installations for those who are so inclined. 

Jim

so long as I have access to parts in the rare event that something happens.  It would be a bummer if my plane were grounded for lack of a relatively simple problem.  

[Marauder]

Anyone interested in buying stock in a new company called "Marauder's Bladders - Home of the BIG Bladders"?

I think we still need to understand their situation. Buying out a business whole or part leads to new challenges. They may still be working through the transition and haven't figured out how to keep up with the new business.

Has anyone obtained bladders from them since O&N ceased operations?


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[jetdriven]

1 hour ago, bluehighwayflyer said:

If memory serves that is indeed O&N's bladder manufacturer, Bob. Standard practice is for bladder manufacturers to replicate bladders as owner produced parts just like McFarlane does with engine controls. If Griggs stops supporting the STC that is what will happen. Replacement parts are rarely needed and are largely standard parts anyway. The bummer will be  the lack of availability for new installations for those who are so inclined. 

Jim

Six years ago when I bought my plane I enailed them and they said that all work on those bladders has to go through O&N, even though O&N. is out of business now and someone else on the STC that's the problem....somebody owns the STC and unless they relinquish it to the public domain you're in this catch 22....you are told to go to the person to get parts and they're not making the parts....This sucks... Just like GA goes, every measurable statistic has been declining since 1979. And once again we don't have something that we used to... if I hadn't stopped drinking I'd probably have me a few right now.

heres the email from 2011. 

Hi O & N is the one who install these little cells.  We are the manufactures for O&N and you must buy from them.  They will give you the price.  Any other fuel cells we can provide for you but these.  Sorry….Penney King

O&N number is 570-945-3769  ..

 

Penney King

Edited January 1, 2017 by jetdriven

[bonal]

Mine were installed by Top Gun in 2006 perhaps they might want the STC but if they can get the cells they certainly could do the installation 

[Marauder]

Anyone know where Grigg's is located? If they are close to where O&N was located in Factoryville, I will call Yetti up and make a visit. Between his 6'9" stature and a couple of my girls tagging along, they will see the error of their ways.

If they are close, I may just fly over and get the scoop first.


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[takair]

6 hours ago, moosebreath said:

O&N is out of business and the STC is now owned by Griggs Aircraft.

Griggs appears to be totally uninterested in supporting existing bladder installations or selling more.  My shop called a week ago with a couple of questions and a request for parts for my one year old installation.  They were basically told it was not Griggs problem and to deal with it themselves. So much for the five year warranty ...

It appears the bladder vs reseal discussion is over due to lack of availability of bladders.

 

Any chance this was a misunderstanding?  Were you looking to purchase parts or was it warranty?  Their website seems to be indicative of a growing company.  Looks like they also recently purchased Wolf Aircraft.  They specifically advertise fabrication of fuel tanks, so the O&N STC seems to fit their business model.  Let's hope you just got the wrong person on the phone.

[moosebreath]

It was not a misunderstanding.  They usuallly do not answer their phone.  When they finally did answer they were not helpful.  All we wanted were some gaskets, clamps, and a clamp torque spec not shown on the drawing.  My understanding was we were told they did not sell parts and did not wish to assist us with the provision of any information.  So we made the gaskets, bought the clamps elsewhere, and tightened the clamps to a reasonable value.  Basically the entire interaction was the exact opposite of calling O&M.  We spoke with them many times during the installation, which had problems, and they were always helpful and pleasant.

 

[RobertGary1]

Odd someone would pay good money for an stc and then not monetize in.  

 

 

-Robert

[Bob_Belville]

The difficulty communicating with them is very odd for a company with products and services to sell and it appears to be intentional. Their email address goes through a screening that requires you to confirm to a spam blocker service that you're a real person before Griggs even receives your email which you created on their website! Who does that? 

And Chris, Griggs is supposed to be on SkyHaven Airport, Tuckhannock, 76N, a 2000' strip nw of Wilkes Barre. I think you should get your goons and go see them!

The O&N website is still up with the Olson's announcement of their retirement. I copy it here because it might not stay up. If someone has or can find Myron's phone #, it might be helpful to get his take on what's going on.

It is with mixed emotions that O&N Aircraft Modifications, Inc. announces the closing of our business at Seamans Airport.  For 29 years we have been fortunate to be able to serve the general aircraft population; to develop innovative and excellent modifications; and most importantly to have forged very special and life-long friendships with so many of our customers.

The talented technicians and mechanics who have serviced your airplanes for so many years will continue to support you and our products.

Under the direction of Bill Miller, Larry Kriner and Nando Zecca a new repair station facility has been established at Hazleton Municipal Airport (KHZL).  The new facility is Blackrock Aircraft Maintenance & Avionics, LLC.  They can be reached at (570) 497-4545 or at www.blackrockaircraft.com

Under the direction of Matt Griggs, Chris Murley and Jeff Ball the currently established repair station facility Griggs Aircraft Refinishing has purchased the Supplement Type Certificates from O & N.  They will be continuing to produce the Silver Eagle 210 Conversions, the auxiliary fuel tanks, and Mooney bladder kits. They can be reached at (570) 836-5757 or at www.griggsaircraft.com

In the event that you are in need of the 135 amp alternators or placards, please contact Amie’s Airparts. LLC at amiesairparts@gmx.com

Myron and Diane Olson have retired but we are always available to take your calls.

We will miss you all!

 

[Bob_Belville]

Griggs is not listed as a business at Skyhaven by AIRNAV. Here's the FBO/airport management info if someone wants to inquire about their status there.

Airport Ownership and Management from official FAA records

Ownership:	Privately-owned
Owner:	SKYHAVEN AIRPORT INC 17 RUNWAY RD TUNKHANNOCK, PA 18657 Phone 570-836-4800
Manager:	CHARLIE GAY 626 HUNTER HWY TUNKHANNOCK, PA 18657 Phone 570-466-0697

[takair]

1 hour ago, Bob_Belville said:

The difficulty communicating with them is very odd for a company with products and services to sell and it appears to be intentional. Their email address goes through a screening that requires you to confirm to a spam blocker service that you're a real person before Griggs even receives your email which you created on their website! Who does that? 

And Chris, Griggs is supposed to be on SkyHaven Airport, Tuckhannock, 76N, a 2000' strip nw of Wilkes Barre. I think you should get your goons and go see them!

The O&N website is still up with the Olson's announcement of their retirement. I copy it here because it might not stay up. If someone has or can find Myron's phone #, it might be helpful to get his take on what's going on.

It is with mixed emotions that O&N Aircraft Modifications, Inc. announces the closing of our business at Seamans Airport.  For 29 years we have been fortunate to be able to serve the general aircraft population; to develop innovative and excellent modifications; and most importantly to have forged very special and life-long friendships with so many of our customers.

The talented technicians and mechanics who have serviced your airplanes for so many years will continue to support you and our products.

Under the direction of Bill Miller, Larry Kriner and Nando Zecca a new repair station facility has been established at Hazleton Municipal Airport (KHZL).  The new facility is Blackrock Aircraft Maintenance & Avionics, LLC.  They can be reached at (570) 497-4545 or at www.blackrockaircraft.com

Under the direction of Matt Griggs, Chris Murley and Jeff Ball the currently established repair station facility Griggs Aircraft Refinishing has purchased the Supplement Type Certificates from O & N.  They will be continuing to produce the Silver Eagle 210 Conversions, the auxiliary fuel tanks, and Mooney bladder kits. They can be reached at (570) 836-5757 or at www.griggsaircraft.com

In the event that you are in need of the 135 amp alternators or placards, please contact Amie’s Airparts. LLC at amiesairparts@gmx.com

Myron and Diane Olson have retired but we are always available to take your calls.

We will miss you all!

 

Bob

When I go to the website, I get an obituary notice for Myron (I found this while looking for info for another thread). It appears he had health issues, thus the sale of the company.  Very unfortunate.  I'm also hoping there is some reasonable explanation for the behavior of the new STC owner.  Hard to understand why one would procure the STC and then not support it.

[Yetti]

Several thoughts.  That sucks.  Seems like the goal would be wrestle the STC away from them and place it with Mooneyspace or some other foundation.   Owner produced part

[mike_elliott]

25 minutes ago, Yetti said:

Several thoughts.  That sucks.  Seems like the goal would be wrestle the STC away from them and place it with Mooneyspace or some other foundation.   Owner produced part

You might be on to something here. All of the O&N equipped bladder Mooney's just took a serious hit on value if the STC is not maintained, Just think of owning an L model now. If you cant get a part and need it, you would have a yard ornament instead of a nice Mooney. Perhaps you bladder owners can pool some $ and get Chris's girls to "make them an offer they cant refuse"

[takair]

It is very possible that they don't have PMA yet.  This is one of the traps of the STC process.  Just when you think you are done with all of the hard work, you need to start working with the MIDO to get manufacturing approval.  This can easily be as daunting as the STC and is often overlooked.  The STC, without the PMA, is of limited utility.  This is often where a sold STC falls apart.  The speed at which they might be able to sell parts would depend on if they already have a quality system set up, or if this is the first production part they are selling.  Hopefully they will reach out to the community and provide their formal position on this.  A long term alternate solution might be to reverse engineer the STC and provide PMA parts....or as others suggested....owner produced parts.  The owner produced parts, coming from a manufacturer, can be difficult for some manufacturers and is likely very much dependent on the local FAA FSDO and/or MIDO.  It would take a special company (like McFarlane) with a special relationship with the FAA to do this routinely.  I think we just saw another post related to a popular supplier who is now having troubles with the FAA regarding PMA parts.....or lack of.

[DXB]

34 minutes ago, mike_elliott said:

You might be on to something here. All of the O&N equipped bladder Mooney's just took a serious hit on value if the STC is not maintained, Just think of owning an L model now. If you cant get a part and need it, you would have a yard ornament instead of a nice Mooney. Perhaps you bladder owners can pool some $ and get Chris's girls to "make them an offer they cant refuse"

This is terrible news y'all.  Mine had the bladders go in about 3 years ago. I'm out of my depth to conjure a solution, but willing to help if this type of plan gets put together.   

[slowflyin]

I contacted these gents 6 months ago regarding an O&N aux tank for a Skyhawk and was told the paperwork was in process for the STC transfer. They agreed to contact me when they were good to go. No call yet.


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[RobertGary1]

59 minutes ago, takair said:

It is very possible that they don't have PMA yet.    I think we just saw another post related to a popular supplier who is now having troubles with the FAA regarding PMA parts.....or lack of.

I didn't think the old stc holder manufactured them either. They just held the stc so they were a middle man. 

-Robert

[Piloto]

Fuel tank bladders are no longer used in new production aircraft for a long time. So the market is small and decreasing. If you keep your bladders in a hangar with fuel in them they will last at least 10 years or more.

José

[mike_elliott]

1 minute ago, Piloto said:

Fuel tank bladders are no longer used in new production aircraft for a long time. So the market is small and decreasing. If you keep your bladders in a hangar with fuel in them they will last at least 10 years or more.

José

and also if you keep your wet wings in a hanger with fuel in them, they will last at least 10 years or more. Heat is the enemy of both. Jose, can a plane that has had bladders installed be converted back or is that "game over", do you know?