rethinking an E instead of a J

[gsxrpilot]

1 minute ago, Bug Smasher said:

Don't buy a "bargain" that needs upgrades. Pay a little more up front. Just my two cents.

That's worth a hell of a lot more than $0.02. Many on this board can put an actually dollar cost to ignoring that advice.

[Marauder]

My "J" was originally purchased in only their 2nd year of production (1978). Still it's 14 years newer than the "E" I partnered in. Over its 38 year life it flew an average of 79 hours per year. Now at ~3,000 TTAF I feel confident that the structure remains sound.

I'm not saying there aren't some incredible "vintage" planes but to me the J just feels more modern. Simple emotion likely has something to do with that.

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I agree my F feels real vintage over a J.

To the OP, there are a lot of older Mooneys that are in great shape and many that have been maintained better than later models. It all comes down to who owned them and the way they treated them. There are a number of C/D, E, F and Gs on this site that are equipped and maintained better than you can imagine and better than later models and years.

Take your time and look for a plane that meets your need and budget. And don't get caught up in the glitter of the paint and interior. Look at the whole plane. It doesn't take long to know the difference between window dressing and a plane that has been really cared for.

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[cnoe]

I agree my F feels real vintage over a J.
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What vintage would that be? 2025?

To the OP, there are a lot of older Mooneys that are in great shape and many that have been maintained better than later models.
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I agree wholeheartedly. My '78 was listed well north of $100K with original paint and an only moderately-updated interior. I was more interested in the recent Mattituck rebuild, Weep-No-More tank reseal and solid IFR WAAS (albeit not glass) panel. I asked for and got a sizable discount for the older paint even though the leading edges had been re-done so we ended up right at VREF (always negotiate). When the time is right I'll dress up the P&I to my liking; I'm giving strong consideration to gold plating.


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[bonal]

They have paint that looks like gold plate. With some black accent stripes would look awesome 

[Jerry 5TJ]

My Ovation is "only" 17 years old, and it's already had a complete avionics change, the interior redone, a 3 blade prop, and a new engine (ahem) installed since it left Kerrville. 

Gold plating would have been cheaper. 

 

[carusoam]

A simple M20R engine and prop swap cost twice what my 1965 M20C cost...

Well, that proved logic doesn't always help. 

owning the plane you want, takes a higher level of commitment. 

Really knowing what airplane you want really helps when making a commitment...

It is less of a challenge when you already have a plane and your mission has been pretty well defined.  

Swapping  planes is expensive.  Selecting the wrong one can leave one with a feeling of a financial nightmare.

Best regard,

-a-

 

[TWinter]

10 hours ago, larryb said:

A J is possibly 20 years younger than an E. That is a lot more time for it to have sat outside and developed corrosion or some other problem. Lots of other old and deteriorated little parts. You may not save as much as you think.

True, but they made the E until 73/74..The key would be finding the "right" E.

[SharkBait]

10 hours ago, gsxrpilot said:

Jay,

How tall are you? This will tell how much leg room is in the back seat. The difference between the E and the J is 10" split between the backseat and luggage area.

Both the E and J will carry the same load.

Any concerns about an old airframe, corrosion, etc is handled by a proper pre-buy inspection. You can buy a J lemon just as easily as you can buy an E lemon.

Which is the better investment is probably up for debate. The newer the airplane the larger the market, but also the more room for depreciation. The older the airplane the more likely all the depreciation is already been paid out. Example, I bought, flew 400 hours and sold a 1964 C for $2K more than I bought it.

An E will all the speed mods and a two blade prop will keep up with any J out there.

You said $90K is the max budget, no more. That will buy more E than it will J. Then the question is... is a low end J more desirable than a high end E? 

Not for me, I'm the owner and therefore don't ever ride in the back seat ;-)

Im only 5'7".  When I was in that E i turned around when i was sitting in the pilot seat all the way up and there really was plenty of room behind me.. im pretty short.  I do like bug smashers idea..

[Candy man]

The newbies here need help   Differentiating between the good ones and bad ones.  We sometimes wonder if we can get off cheap on the purchase and be willing to do things like the engine and the panel is it ever worth it .  So we need advice on  List things that seem too good to be true .  But we are grateful .

 

http://www.controller.com/listings/aircraft/for-sale/1436739/1968-mooney-m20e-chapparal

[Marauder]

The newbies here need help   Differentiating between the good ones and bad ones.  We sometimes wonder if we can get off cheap on the purchase and be willing to do things like the engine and the panel is it ever worth it .  So we need advice on  List things that seem too good to be true .  But we are grateful .
 
http://www.controller.com/listings/aircraft/for-sale/1436739/1968-mooney-m20e-chapparal

This plane is a good example of why you should do the math carefully. At 1,700 on the engine, depending on how it was maintained, you could be looking at an engine rebuild now or within in the next 500 hours. The avionics already have something listed an "inop" and there is no current GPS in the panel. It also has Narco stuff in the panel.

You could easily drop $35AMU on this plane in the next year. So the $25AMU plane could end up being a $50AMU plane pretty quickly.


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[carusoam]

 

Candy man,

buying a plane outside of the country that is out of annual doesn't sound like a good idea...

Some people are really good at resurrecting planes. They do this for a living.

As a newby, I would be more aligned to buying a plane that is closer by, in annual, and passes a PPI that meets my needs...

Going to Mexico to buy a plane with a high time engine and an ancient IP doesn't sound like a good newby plan.

Not the most reliable way to start a GA plan...

Best regards,

-a-

 

[TWinter]

25 minutes ago, Marauder said:

 

 

This plane is a good example of why you should do the math carefully. At 1,700 on the engine, depending on how it was maintained, you could be looking at an engine rebuild now or within in the next 500 hours. The avionics already have something listed an "inop" and there is no current GPS in the panel. It also has Narco stuff in the panel.

You could easily drop $35AMU on this plane in the next year. So the $25AMU plane could end up being a $50AMU plane pretty quickly.


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and $35k would just get you a "Just Okay" plane. Nothing to get excited about.

 

-Tom

[eman1200]

5 minutes ago, TWinter said:

and $35k would just get you a "Just Okay" plane. Nothing to get excited about.

 

-Tom

I think I'd take an OK (structurally sound) plane over nothing. 

[RobertGary1]

2 hours ago, TWinter said:

and $35k would just get you a "Just Okay" plane. Nothing to get excited about.

 

-Tom

Compared to taking that $35K to the Chevy dealer it's quite exciting. 

-Robert

[Jerry 5TJ]

2 hours ago, Marauder said:

....You could easily drop $35AMU on this plane in the next year. So the $25AMU plane could end up being a $50AMU plane.....

 

.... and then you could sell it for $40K.  That implies a current value of $5K.  

 

 

[gsxrpilot]

5 hours ago, cnoe said:

When the time is right I'll dress up the P&I to my liking; I'm giving strong consideration to gold plating.

 

And a new N number. ;-)

[cnoe]

And a new N number. ;-)

At least a new font.


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[gsxrpilot]

After watching the Mooney market for a couple of years (granted a small sample) I've come up with a very simple formula. Every $1 spent up front will save $4 in upgrades.  In other words find a $40,000 plane and a $50,000 plane. If you bought the $40,000 plane it will cost you another $40,000 to get it to the same condition (and value) as the $50,000 example.  So it's much better to spend the extra $10K up front then buy a fixer upper and pay the costs to actually fix it up.

My budget the first time around was $50K. I wanted an E for that. And several on this board suggested I stretch my budget to $60K and get a J.  I ended up stretching the budget to $57K for a REALLY NICE C!  Then I negotiated down to $48K. In the airplane market it's better to buy the most expensive (read best condition, best panel, best upgrades, etc) example of a given model rather than looking for a bargain. They don't exist in aviation.

[ArtVandelay]

44 minutes ago, gsxrpilot said:

After watching the Mooney market for a couple of years (granted a small sample) I've come up with a very simple formula. Every $1 spent up front will save $4 in upgrades.  In other words find a $40,000 plane and a $50,000 plane. If you bought the $40,000 plane it will cost you another $40,000 to get it to the same condition (and value) as the $50,000 example.  So it's much better to spend the extra $10K up front then buy a fixer upper and pay the costs to actually fix it up.

As someone who went through the upgrade process, I don't agree. Will you get your money back, no way, but you don't lose 75% either, at least not with the modern planes were there is more upside. There is estimator tools out there you can plug in numbers and see what upgrades will add.  Most of them are not up to date with ADSB, GTN, etc.  Js list for as much as $165K, Es only $60K.

 

[Marauder]

.... and then you could sell it for $40K.  That implies a current value of $5K.  
 
 

Exactly.


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[Hank]

9 hours ago, cnoe said:

When the time is right I'll dress up the P&I to my liking; I'm giving strong consideration to gold plating.

 

 

You mean like this??

  

My wife loves her Mooney!

[KLRDMD]

On 12/17/2016 at 8:12 AM, carusoam said:

Swapping planes is expensive.  

I see this written on a regular basis.  Swapping  planes can be expensive but I've made +/- $75,000 swapping airplanes over the last 15 years and only lost money on one transaction.

[carusoam]

One has to get good at swapping planes to make money at it...

Making money buying and selling used machinery...  The making part comes on the buying end.

The economy and inflation are also kind of helpful to doing this on both the buying and selling end.

Looks like buy today and sell in the future might start working again as interest rates are coming up off the floor.  Fuel prices remain stable...

Ken, what were your best and worst transactions? (Only if you want to tell)

my worst...  M20C, bought for >30amu, flew for a decade, sold for <20amu.  About 1AMU per year to fly for a decade....

my best...  M20R, bought after the financial crisis, sold decades later after a lot of inflation occurred....(story isn't over yet) 

Sharky, jump in the water is just fine!

Best regards,

-a-

 

[DonMuncy]

25 minutes ago, KLRDMD said:

I see this written on a regular basis.  Swapping  planes can be expensive but I've made +/- $75,000 swapping airplanes over the last 15 years and only lost money on one transaction.

I don't doubt you have done this. If one were to set out to make money buying and selling, I suspect it could be done profitably, if one buys right, makes only the changes which are economically smart, and sells without broker fees. However, for most of us, we want to buy a plane to fly because we want that plane. We then make the paint, interior and avionics the way we want them. That is, the way we want to fly, not the way that will work for resale. When you do it that way, you don't make money; you spend it. Then if you change planes, it is expensive.  

[Hank]

4 minutes ago, DonMuncy said:

However, for most of us, we want to buy a plane to fly because we want that plane. We then make the paint, interior and avionics the way we want them. That is, the way we want to fly, not the way that will work for resale. When you do it that way, you don't make money; you spend it. Then if you change planes, it is expensive.  

Some of us buy well-equipped planes and fly them, doing proper maintenance and fixing things when they break. This does not cost an arm or a leg, much less both . . . .