Small distraction claims another airplane...

[Guitarmaster]

https://r.tapatalk.com/shareLink?url=http%3A%2F%2Fgeneralaviationnews%2Ecom%2F2016%2F10%2F25%2Fproblem-with-avionics-leads-to-crash%2F&share_tid=d1520b4f8467e9fb5aed7741db5b3da4&share_fid=1097991&share_type=b

Problem with avionics leads to crash

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[Oscar Avalle]

Yes, it is very tempting to keep your head down trying to figure out why is it doing that!! instead of flying the airplane. I try to make sure that I concentrate on getting everything programmed before I start taxing... but when something happens on take off... my mental drill is just fly the airplane...

[Mooneymite]

Good lesson there for all of us.  Thanks for sharing.

During my recent SIM training, there was a lot of discussion about whether "red X's" on both PFD's in IMC on takeoff would warrant an abort at V1.

I'm not sure there is a "one size fits all" answer.  There, but for the grace of God....

Edited October 25, 2016 by Mooneymite

[flyboy0681]

I lost the air speed indicator a minute after liftoff back in the days when I was a renter in the early 80's. I kept her flying and brought the 172 back around for a fast, but uneventful landing. Turned out to be a bug in the pitot. Fly the plane first.

[Yetti]

No way you can fly a plane without instruments....    the whole G1000 panel goes dark at night if you don't know where the dimmer knob is

[Guitarmaster]

No way you can fly a plane without instruments....    the whole G1000 panel goes dark at night if you don't know where the dimmer knob is

Isn't there a backup ASI with the glass installation?

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[Mooneymite]

30 minutes ago, Yetti said:

No way you can fly a plane without instruments....   

[Shadrach]

35 minutes ago, Guitarmaster said:

 

Isn't there a backup ASI with the glass installation?

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Even if there is not, who cares?  This guy performed an "emergency" abort do to an ASI in day VFR conditions?...and then departed the runway.   Sorry, but it's hard to empathize here.  The 172 I used to rent had a pitot bug cover that had a vane on it that was supposed to uncover the pitot as the plane built airspeed. The hinge stuck on a night take off out of KMTN and I felt more comfortable continuing the departure then stopping. I stayed in the pattern, made an uneventful landing and go out and twisted that stupid cover off off the pitot (while on the taxiway).  The worst part about the whole thing was explaining to my passengers that everything was fine.  I think I had ~90hrs at the time.

Humans to screens like moths to a flame...Just fly the F#^&ing airplane.

[Skates97]

On my check-ride a couple weeks ago as we were heading back to the airport for my last landing the DPE said "Looks like a bug must have flow in your PITOT mast" and put a sticky over my ASI. The rest of the flight and landing were done without it, not a big deal. I'm just a newbie but I don't understand why someone would be so attached to the instruments when flying VFR.

[AndyFromCB]

13 minutes ago, Skates97 said:

On my check-ride a couple weeks ago as we were heading back to the airport for my last landing the DPE said "Looks like a bug must have flow in your PITOT mast" and put a sticky over my ASI. The rest of the flight and landing were done without it, not a big deal. I'm just a newbie but I don't understand why someone would be so attached to the instruments when flying VFR.

To keep from exceeding 250knots on climb out would be my only guess ;-) 

[TWinter]

Good reasoning to have the G5 or similar. Separate and independent back-up. Would not compensate for the pilots distraction, but another tool in the toolbox.

 

-Tom

[Skates97]

11 minutes ago, AndyFromCB said:

To keep from exceeding 250knots on climb out would be my only guess ;-) 

Never going to happen in the Piper, even downhill with a tailwind! 

[AndyFromCB]

Just now, Skates97 said:

Never going to happen in the Piper, even downhill with a tailwind! 

Never say never, long, long time ago, far, far away, I got about 50mph past Vne on a Cherokee 140 after brain fart during a botched roll. That's about 230mph? Oh, to be young and smart again...

[kmyfm20s]

14 minutes ago, TWinter said:

Good reasoning to have the G5 or similar. Separate and independent back-up. Would not compensate for the pilots distraction, but another tool in the toolbox.

 

-Tom

Unfortunately they still have a common Pitot tube.

[AndyFromCB]

5 hours ago, Mooneymite said:

Good lesson there for all of us.  Thanks for sharing.

During my recent SIM training, there was a lot of discussion about whether "red X's" on both PFD's in IMC on takeoff would warrant an abort at V1.

I'm not sure there is a "one size fits all" answer.  There, but for the grace of God....

What was the consensus? Abort? Why not if at V1? What's a chance of that happening on a modern jet? Less than zero? I can think of a few spots in lower 48 where continuing take off without navigation would result in guaranteed death unless you were in a old Learjet with 10000fpm climb rate.

[Mooneymite]

43 minutes ago, AndyFromCB said:

What was the consensus? Abort? Why not if at V1? What's a chance of that happening on a modern jet? Less than zero? I can think of a few spots in lower 48 where continuing take off without navigation would result in guaranteed death unless you were in a old Learjet with 10000fpm climb rate.

The Jet involved has plenty of climb performance (hint:  the engine out procedure on takeoff out of Aspen is:  runway heading!), but that's not the point.  The great unknown is how fast the pilot flying can:

1.  recognize the failure

2.  understand that both sides have failed.

3.  transition his scan to the standby gyro and maintain control of the aircraft.

.All in a low-vis, low ceiling, time critical (V1) environment.

The chance of this happening in the sim:  very high.

The chances of this happening in the airplane:  very, very low, but not zero.

There was no consensus, because this scenario has too many variables.

[Danb]

2 hours ago, TWinter said:

Good reasoning to have the G5 or similar. Separate and independent back-up. Would not compensate for the pilots distraction, but another tool in the toolbox.

 

-Tom

I plan on installing.G-5 next to the G1000, need to move four switches seems like a good move based on where a Mooney hid the backups.

[Guitarmaster]

Wether in a jet or a light single, I think the take away from this is the decision needs to be made before TO power is applied.  Those of us the fly professionally have the advantage practicing abnormalities at least each year in a no-threat (simulator) environment.  In a two-pilot cockpit, briefings are important to get both pilots on the same page.  Of course, there is only one pilot in our planes.  Why not brief yourself?  


We, as pilots, use checklists to make sure systems are set properly.  The same can be done with your brain.  Although not every emergency can be anticipated, most can.  Using the law of Murphy, we can assume whatever can go wrong, will go wrong precisely at the wrong moment.  The engine is the obvious culprit, but how many of us "internally brief" an instrument failure?  Where is your personal "V1?"  


NTSB statistics indicate a high-speed reject (abort) is far more likely to end up in an accident in comparison to taking the plane airborne.  


At my place of employment, we have low and high-speed regimes regarding rejected take-off.  Below 80KT, reject for anything.  Above 80KT only for four things: Fire, engine failure, plane won't fly and predictive windshear.  Obviously this is somewhat apples to oranges, but what if we were to make our own low/high speed decision point?  Maybe something like below 50 mph?

To answer the V1 reject with red x's on the ASI question; my answer is without a doubt GO!  IMHO, it's far more dangerous to reject at or above (which you will be at if you make the decision at V1) V1 than to take the plane flying.  In my professional life, the decision regarding this scenario was made at the gate.  


We had a plane years ago that departed with frozen static ports.  All airspeeds were erroneous.  The crew flew using pitch and power only.  They flew to VFR and landed but it was tense.  IN this case, it was a slow failure that caused a lot of confusion.  


It has always amazed me how, in aviation, a small thing can turn into a monster cluster in a split second!

Edited October 26, 2016 by Guitarmaster

[Mooneymite]

23 minutes ago, Guitarmaster said:

To answer the V1 reject with red x's on the ASI question....

Actually, the discussion was about red X's on both PFD's (pitch, roll, AS, VSI, Altitude) which is more debilitating than loss of ASI.

When three experienced pilots lose control of an otherwise perfect plane that lost ASI for two minutes (AF 447) at cruise altitude, it makes one wonder how well an average pilot will do losing pitch, roll and ASI just before, or just after V1.

Not a situation I ever want to encounter.  Tough enough when your ready for it in the sim!

[Guitarmaster]

Actually, the discussion was about red X's on both PFD's (pitch, roll, AS, VSI, Altitude) which is more debilitating than loss of ASI.
When three experienced pilots lose control of an otherwise perfect plane that lost ASI for two minutes (AF 447) at cruise altitude, it makes one wonder how well an average pilot will do losing pitch, roll and ASI just before, or just after V1.
Not a situation I ever want to encounter.  Tough enough when your ready for it in the sim!

Ya. Losing all instruments would be bad and you could make the argument that it was incapable of flight in IMC thereby necessitating a reject. Definitely something to think about on takeoff.

Would it ever happen in a modern jet? Doubtful. In a light plane with a single glass panel? Possible.

Like you MM, I'm fine with never experiencing it! I'm curious, do you know what drove the question in your class?

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[Mooneymite]

Just now, Guitarmaster said:

I'm curious, do you know what drove the question......

 

I do.  The pervert running the sim failed both PFD's at V1.

[Guitarmaster]

I do.  The pervert running the sim failed both PFD's at V1.

LMAO!!!

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[Mooneymite]

There's no chance of maintaining a high opinion of your flying skills with such creative men playing god on the sim control panel.  

[AndyFromCB]

Just now, Mooneymite said:

There's no chance of maintaining a high opinion of your flying skills with such creative men playing god on the sim control panel.  

This is my favorite aviation quote ever. Thank you for a laugh.

[Piloto]

Well that new PFD didn't improve safety or performance. Now you know what the big red X means.

José