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Posted (edited)

I'm taking my plane to a new shop I have never used before, next week. Every annual I've had before was completed in a day so I'd take my logbooks but never had to leave them somewhere overnight. I decided to take it to a MSC in San Diego to get a fresh set of eyes on it and perhaps a more comprehensive annual. They said it should take them a week. They want me to take my logbooks so they can review them. I offered to give them a USB drive with all my logbooks scanned or even email it to them. They say they prefer to have the logbooks and the piston maintenance manager said he would ask on my behalf if I could send them on USB. He hasn't gotten back to me and that was over a week ago. I don't want to chance that they could get lost, misplaced, pages removed, held hostage if there's a dispute, etc.

As a Mike Busch listener he says the logbooks should never go to the shop for a variety of reasons and I tend to agree. So my question is, what do most of you guys do? Do you send the logbooks with the plane to the shop? I don't even like flying with my logbooks because if I have an accident and they are destroyed there's probably no record to show the plane was airworthy, for insurance purposes, unless I had to foresight to scan them before doing so which could cause an insurance problem for my surviving wife.

Discuss.

Edited by NotarPilot
Posted

Trust is an important factor.

My MSC gets my most recent log books in the plane, where they stay the whole time...

my local shop has a tendency to put them away in their file, which I usually retrieve or leave or not care enough about...

If my mechanic were known for holding logs ransome, I wouldn't be giving nice reviews about them all the time.  Or let him install expensive bits and pieces on the front of my plane.

essentially, choose a procedure that works for you.  The logs are expensive and un-replaceable.  You are responsible to not accidently give them away or let them get lost.

It's really cool when you work with the same people for decades...:)

Best regards,

-a-

 

  • Like 1
Posted

Good topic! You are correct to the point of understanding their (logs) importance. I would ask a laundry list of questions, as per how they are stored, who has access, etc. As an IA, I can do a better job backtracking and finding info when all three are laid our in front of me. Also, they will need to be signed in the end. Sticky log entries are ok, but it's up to the inspector and owner to make sure they get actually put into the log books. I once had a logbook explode in front of me with about 16 log stickers that flew out. Not a one was actually stuck to the pages. Since it sounds like you really care about it, see what the shop can offer, but in the end the logs are all part of the deal too.

Let us know how Crown treats you. I sure wish we had better go to services in LA. If you have not pulled the trigger on the annual yet, you may give Kim Davidson at SMO a call. He has been working GA since the 70's and has a good eye for things. There must be 25 Cirrus on his ramp. Great guy!

need to do a little SoCal Fly out again!!

-Matt

  • Like 1
Posted

Matt, I don't think it's the responsibility to make sure the sticky entry gets into the logbook.  I think that's the owners responsibility just as I don't really have to keep them in a logbook per se. I mean, theoretically I could have the maintenance entries written on napkins and keep them in a ziplock baggy and technically it would be a legal record of maintenance. I know no one does that but my point is, through my understanding, it's the owners responsibility to maintain the aircraft maintenance logs. 

If this advice is preached by Busch so strongly, there has to be a good number of shops who are okay with digital logs without the need for the hard copies. I never take my logs to the avionics shop or anyone else who's worked on the plane besides the guy I had doing my annual and that was only because I never had to leave them there. Yes, trust is an important factor but we're all human and we all make mistakes. Things get lost and misplaced and I don't need to tell anyone how much a plane can lose it's value without complete logs. 

Posted

From their end it likely comes down to the AD search being much more painful without the physical copies.  And yes they can hold your logs for ransom or what not.  

However - if you have an AD list that references what pages in the logs you can find the compliance info for airframe, engine and accessories it becomes much easier for a new IA to ensure that they're all complied with.  

Posted

Personally as a matter of policy I don't leave original logs with a shop. Original logs spend most of their life in a safety deposit box. They only come out occasionally to get updated and get some fresh air!

Give them the thumb drive. If they want paper logs they can print them off the thumb drive or you can offer to print them and bring copies to them.

  • Like 1
Posted

Concur with PTK.  Paper copies are just as good as the originals.  If its a question of trust then you should definitely not leave them at the shop and perhaps consider a different shop.  

Posted

It seems to be blown out of proportion, you're trusting the shop with your life by how well they do the annual, but you don't trust them with the logs.  If you're that bothered have them do their log book review while you're there, then tell them you'll bring them back for entries and a signature at the end.

I have around 100 sets in my possession at any one time, all kept in fireproof filing cabinets, I've never lost one yet.

Clarence

Posted

I guess it's a matter of trust, but I've never once hesitated to leave the logs with the A/P during an annual. I figure they need the information. And I have only ever used guys that I personally know and have had good experience with. I did notice that after my last annual, the logs weren't in the plane like they usually are (it's in a locked hangar) so I called my guy up and asked him about it. His response was "I usually don't return the logs until I've been paid" to which I said "Dude, when was the last time I didn't pay you?" He brought them over immediately...I think it was just a brain fart on his part.

Posted

My aircraft's original log...first 9 years...was lost by a shop doing the annual.  There were mitigating circumstances:  the death of one of the shop's mechanics, but the logbook was never recovered.

The logs stay in my possession now.

  • Like 3
Posted

I don't see a problem.. If you have a digital copy of your AD records and logs, why not give the originals to the shop, that you are trusting with your plane? They have already won your trust to get your business. If you get into a dispute, no biggie, you still have the digital copies you can make into new logbooks while you are spending money with lawyers to tell the shop to twirl. Or you could do it the other way around, you keep the originals and they get the digitals, and they give you a bigger bill because it might be  more inconvenient for the A$P/IA  who doesn't have the computer competency to match his wrenching.

Posted

Original logs directly effect the value of my aircraft. Therefore it is how I feel that takes precedence over the feelings of the shop. Thumb drive or print and give them a paper copy.

Most shops mean well and make every effort to guard the logs. But things beyond our control can and do happen. You can only lose the original logs once and that's too many.

Posted

Paper logs are so twentieth century.  

Many corporate aircraft operations use digital logs as primary documentation.  

Service Bulletins, AD compliance, periodic requirements are all tracked and reported.  No forgetting ELT battery expiration: You get a message alerting you of approaching requirements. 

The P46T logs are "hybrid"--digital since 2010, paper prior to that.

My Ovation logs fill a big, mostly organized set of binders.  I have a 20th century aircraft, after all.  

 

Posted

Crown Air is top notch - Dave Gill won my trust on a very thorough pre-buy that they did at a very fair price.

They'll take good care of your logs. Just make sure you have a back up. They can probably thumb through a log book faster than looking at the digital version which might save you some of their time.

Posted
Just now, LANCECASPER said:

...They'll take good care of your logs. Just make sure you have a back up...

Why not you take care of your logs and give them the back up?

Posted

For years I left the logs at my maintenance shop only to find they were sitting on a shelf with dozens of others. No fire protection, no water protection and not sure anyone would do this, no theft protection. Even with backups, having the originals was important to me. When they moved to an electronic system, I kept the logs and only brought them in to complete the official sticky in the log act.

My biggest concern leaving a log with a new shop is not loss as much as them being held ransom because you disagreed on the service provided. I ran into this situation this past year. My 19 year mechanic retired and the shop was sold. I had a significant disagreement with the new shop over the cost of the annual (ex. does it really take 10 hours to replace an ELT in a Mooney, even with a new lead being run to the GPS?). If the shop owner didn't agree to reduce the labor on things that were obviously overcharged, I would not have liked being in a position to try to get them back.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Posted

Logs are important. However, the last 5 years and a log of AD compliance, IMHO, are more important than a 337 for something that was installed 30 years ago and removed and replaced 2 times with something new since or the oil changes done on an engine two overhauls ago or a circuit breaker that was changed 10 years ago.  Those items do not mean a whole lot to me other than that some type of work was done.

 

Keeping an old 337 for something that has been removed just takes up space in the book even though I am guilty of this as well.

Posted
17 minutes ago, PTK said:

Why not you take care of your logs and give them the back up?

In thinking about this a few minutes, you're right. About 12 years ago I had the annual from hell (almost three months with very few discrepancies) where the shop owner and his IA were fighting for weeks and I was caught in the crossfire. I didn't have a problem getting my logs back but can see the potential for that. It's not worth the risk.

Posted
14 minutes ago, PTK said:

Why not you take care of your logs and give them the back up?

When I review someone's logbooks when doing their annual, I find it faster and easier doing so with the original hard copies.  There is a lot of cross referencing, especially with ADs, that is much easier done with logbooks than staring at a computer screen.

I would estimate it would take up to an hour per decade of age for the aircraft, and more if I found something on the airplane (such as a repair) that I would then have to refer back to when reviewing the logbooks.

So, for example, let's say your airplane is a 1986 M20J.  Your shop finds a repair on the airplane, and, from their AD search, there are a couple of things they have to check for compliance.  You show up at 9:00 to pick up your airplane.  It will take them about 3 hours to go back 30 years in your logbooks, weight and balance record, AD lists, and 337 files.  Add another 2 hours to check the previously repaired item and the ADs, then 1 additional hour to finish closing up the airplane.  It is now 3:00 and you're angry because "the airplane wasn't ready to go on the day they said it would be ready".

This can be a no-win situation for the shop and could easily have been avoided if you had left your logbooks with them.

Posted

As many have said; I keep originals, shops gets a clone, we are all happy. Last thing you want is a shop holding your logs hostage if something goes south. 

  • Like 2
Posted

I keep my logbooks (and all original STCs, 337forms, etc.) in a fire resistant safe in my hangar. For annuals I bring them to LASAR, or to an avionics shop, and bring them back with me when I pick up the airplane. I keep photocopies in my office location as backup.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Posted

I assume my shop DOM is not an idiot, after doing the AD list the first time they can just check logs from the last year when it was in for its annual. AD list is already in the computer and quick check of work done since last year, takes them probably 5 minutes.
I have pdfs on a thumb drive on my key chain, which is what they get, paper stays at home.

  • Like 1
Posted

With the ability to make excellent copies of the paper logs...in effect a set of "duplicate logs", a shop which insists on the original paper logs may be thinking more of bargaining leverage over the final bill than saving you money.

However, it may also be that the shop is just doing things the way it's always done them.

If the shop wants to "see" the logs, that's fine, but don't ever leave the shop without them.

Posted
1 hour ago, teejayevans said:

I assume my shop DOM is not an idiot, after doing the AD list the first time they can just check logs from the last year when it was in for its annual. AD list is already in the computer and quick check of work done since last year, takes them probably 5 minutes.
I have pdfs on a thumb drive on my key chain, which is what they get, paper stays at home.

The OP said, "I'm taking my plane to a new shop I have never used before".  This is a very different situation than what you are describing, which I also agree with, BTW.

For an airplane I've never inspected before, I'll stand by my original statement.

Posted
1 hour ago, N1395W said:

...For an airplane I've never inspected before, I'll stand by my original statement.

And...is that your final answer?! :D

 

 

5 hours ago, N1395W said:

When I review someone's logbooks when doing their annual, I find it faster and easier doing so with the original hard copies.  There is a lot of cross referencing, especially with ADs, that is much easier done with logbooks than staring at a computer screen.

Good. You can have all the paper hard copies you want! I'll even give you copies of copies!! :D

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