Stalls and slow flight poll/discussion.

[Mooneymite]

1 hour ago, cnoe said:

But quickly, before the fat lady appears (no singing necessary) I'd like to briefly summarize and comment on the poll question.

It is notable that essentially 60% of respondents have practiced a stall in the past 12 months while 40% have not.

Also, about 15% indicated that they have NEVER stalled their Mooney.

I will make no judgement as to the merits of stall training.

But it would be interesting to see if any correlation exists between the pilots' age and their propensity for regular (or even occasional) stall training.

I was one of those who responded "Not in the last year", but that's a little misleading since I do stalls in my other plane often and I am forced to do approach and departure stalls in the simulator twice a year.....so, I guess I've done stalls recently...just not in the Mooney.  My Mooney stalls very predictably and I don't feel the need to practice in it very often.  However, doing stalls in "something" is a part of staying proficient and keeping your edge.  

Oh, if you're young, you'd consider me an old guy.  If you're old, you'd consider me young....but you'd have to be pretty old. 

Edited September 16, 2016 by Mooneymite

[Jsavage3]

On September 14, 2016 at 0:39 PM, 201er said:

The solution? Fly by angle of attack and not by airspeed. Preferably an AOA indicator, but even just forgetting about airspeed values and thinking about the angle of attack of the airplane in each configuration. If you reference Vx and Vy as angles of attack and not as airspeeds, you are more likely to get better performance (which makes you less likely to inadvertently pull back) while also having greater stall margin.

Vx/Vy are typically referenced in the POH for gross weight at sea level at standard temp. Guess what? Accidents tend not to happen under ideal conditions. I'd bet you many of them are at higher than standard temp/altitude (if not over gross). So the POH published numbers will be least helpful when you need them most! Fly by AOA. That's the only thing that actually affects the wing.

201er, I'm sorry your flight instructors lied to you.  That is unfortunate.  It is comments like seen above that you posted 2 days ago that caused me to be alarmed, especially knowing how many new-b Mooney drivers come to this forum for information.

Based on your latest post, I am happy to see you use your AOA indicator in addition to everything else, to include your ASI, to keep your bird flying.  But I will re-emphasize my belief that one does need to practice slow flight, to include full stalls, from time to time in order to be a safe & proficient pilot.  Based on existing training & checking requirements, the FAA, AOPA, MAPA, EAA, the military and every other aviation organization in existence feels the same way.

Edited September 17, 2016 by Jsavage3

[Danb]

1 hour ago, cnoe said:

But quickly, before the fat lady appears (no singing necessary) I'd like to briefly summarize and comment on the poll question.

It is notable that essentially 60% of respondents have practiced a stall in the past 12 months while 40% have not.

Also, about 15% indicated that they have NEVER stalled their Mooney.

I will make no judgement as to the merits of stall training.

But it would be interesting to see if any correlation exists between the pilots' age and their propensity for regular (or even occasional) stall training.

My assumption would be the older pilots would be more apt to practice slow flight, stalls etc, since these were an integral part of our training of which it appears they are getting away from. 

[201er]

23 minutes ago, Jsavage3 said:

201er, I'm sorry your moron flight instructors lied to you.  That is unfortunate.  It is comments like seen above that you posted 2 days ago that caused me to be alarmed, especially knowing how many new-b Mooney drivers come to this forum for information.

Based on your latest post, I am happy to see you use your AOA indicator in addition to everything else, to include your ASI, to keep your bird flying.  But I will re-emphasize my belief that one does need to practice slow flight, to include full stalls, from time to time in order to be a safe & proficient pilot.  Based on existing training & checking requirements, the FAA, AOPA, MAPA, EAA, the military and every other aviation organization in existence feels the same way.

I apologize for my tone to you and if I caused any offense. Perhaps you just didn't read all of the responses I made explaining this. I appreciate you now reading and responding based on what I have stated.

I don't believe instructors lied to me. I really do think they didn't know any better. When my experience level was similar to theirs, I would have probably done the same. But just because flying solely by airspeed is the past and for many the present, doesn't mean we can't change if there is room for improvement. I seriously do believe there is an instruction and a culture problem that puts excessive reliance on airspeed values without developing a sufficient understanding of angle of attack and how airspeed does and doesn't correlate to angle of attack. 

I can tell you for certain that none of four primary instructors I had flown with prior to my first gross weight Skyhawk flight did anything to prepare me for a different angle of attack at acustommed airspeeds (or necessity to fly faster). I didn't crash, stall, or even make a bad landing. Nothing bad actually happened. However, in retrospect (and with a fuller understanding of angle of attack), I realize that I was much closer to stall than I should have been and some of the usual mistakes (pull back, skidding turn, over banking, etc) could have resulted in a disaster.

Except for the Florida takeoff flight I mentioned, I don't recall ever being in as close a danger of stalling since flying by angle of attack (more so the mindset and partially by indicator) as that first heavy Cessna flight.

I don't understand why everyone think that AOA and AOAi are the same thing. People don't have so much trouble grasping that an ASI is "just a gadget" but that airspeed is a thing and a concept. If someone flies strictly by airspeed, then their airspeed values do not change based on flight condition changes (weight, bank, etc). People who properly adjust airspeed values in relation to condition changes, are flying by angle of attack.

How about this, here is how I define these:

Flying by airspeed - flying the same airspeed per flight profile (Vx, Vy, climb, approach) regardless of weight, bank, load, or density altitude. Angle of attack varies by conditon.

Flying by angle of attack - flying the same angle of attack per flight profile regardless of weight, bank, load, density altitude, or airspeed. Airspeed varies by condition.

I was taught by 4 instructors to fly by airspeed. I have seen countless other instructors teach the same way. This is a fundamental problem. Angle of attack indicators are by far the easiest way to get dummies like me to learn, appreciate, and apply angle of attack mindset to flying. I have nothing against pilots who apply the same understanding of angle of attack to an aircraft only equipped with an ASI. Problem is that somewhere along the line, the message gets lost and beginners (like I was in that Skyhawks story) are baffled what is wrong with the stall warning going off with the airspeed being so high!?

[Guest]

I'm curious as to what type of AoA system we are talking about? A pitot head style or and actual vane and transducer like the ones on the side of many turboprop and turbo fan airplanes.  

Clarence

[bradp]

The only after market vane system that I'm aware of is the CYA 100 system.  

This thread is going nowhere and makes me rather disparaged to know it's searchable on google and is for public consumption.   It's turning into a tween MySpace spat or a Reddit rift.  

We can do better Mooneyspace.  

To clarify its been more than one year since I've taken my stall to a break, but I practice approach to stalls and recovery. 

[Yetti]

This is an uniformed statement

"I was taught by 4 instructors to fly by airspeed. I have seen countless other instructors teach the same way. This is a fundamental problem. "

If all you know how to fly is by AoA, there are very few airplanes in the GA fleet you can fly.  How much time was spent with Samiri Husky telling him to quit with the toys.  While the instructors are telling you airspeeds, they are hoping you are learning to listen to the plane and feel what it is doing.   In sailing going upwind is fasted when you are just before the buffet, you learn to feel it.   I can tell a stall right before the buffet.  It is the same.  In training I would always drop the nose right before the buffet.

If you can't land the plane safely without any instruments in all conditions, you should fly more.

[Hank]

I think many people confuse the wings angle of attack with deck angle. It is possible, in an aerobatic plane, to stall the wing on the vertical descent by pulling too hard. Angle of attack is the airflow over the wing regardless of deck angle.

I was taught to fly by airspeed, but certainly not the way Mike defined it! When light, fly slower on final; when heavy, fly faster. Same on takeofff, she's ready to fly sooner when light. 

[201er]

4 minutes ago, Yetti said:

If all you know how to fly is by AoA, there are very few airplanes in the GA fleet you can fly. 

Name one fixed wing airplane that doesn't fly by angle of attack.

[cnoe]

In Marauders absence please let me end this now.

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[Yetti]

Name what percentage of the GA Fleet you can fly by AoA Indicator?

Then name what percentage of the GA fleet you can fly by Airspeed Indicator?

Edited September 17, 2016 by Yetti

[N201MKTurbo]

OK, more random flying stories.

Twice I have had to land without an airspeed indicator. Both times were because of clogged pitot tubes. Both times were at KTUS. They seem to have the right bugs there. BTW don't lose any sleep over it if you land there I commuted there for 10 years and it only happened twice. Anyway, it is an eyrie feeling landing without an airspeed. I just flew the same power settings and sight pictures I always did. I think I didn't notice it on takeoff because I don't normally use airspeed on takeoff. I do no flap takeoffs (just shut up, you flap people) and don't look at anything but the outside world while taking off. After takeoff I clean up the plane then look at the airspeed to set climb attitude so the first time I notice it is after I'm airborne. I will admit when I was commuting that my trips home were on mental autopilot.

BTW you can clean out a clogged pitot tube using the bathroom sinks and sticks from the landscape outside the terminal. And you can R&R a Pitot tube with a $10 tool kit.

[Bob - S50]

3 hours ago, 201er said:

How about this, here is how I define these:

Flying by airspeed - flying the same airspeed per flight profile (Vx, Vy, climb, approach) regardless of weight, bank, load, or density altitude. Angle of attack varies by conditon.

Flying by angle of attack - flying the same angle of attack per flight profile regardless of weight, bank, load, density altitude, or airspeed. Airspeed varies by condition.

Well see?  There's a big difference right there.  Here is how I think about those two methods.

Flying by airspeed.  Referencing the airspeed indicator to maintain the speed determined to be proper for the situation.  For example, if I am solo and am returning to the airport with 10 gallons remaining, my target speed on final will be 62 KIAS.  If I am coming back to land because one of my passengers suddenly decided they need to pee and I'm at almost max gross weight, my target speed on final will be 72 KIAS.  I try to maintain 15 knots above that in the base turn and I am aware that increasing G loading will increase my stall speed.

Flying by angle of attack.  Referencing an AOA indicator to ensure I do not exceed a critical value during turns and striving to maintain an ideal value on final.

Bob

[Bob - S50]

12 minutes ago, 201er said:

Name one fixed wing airplane that doesn't fly by angle of attack.

All airplanes depend on AOA.  However, very few GA airplanes have an AOA indicator so they aren't 'flown' by AOA.  It's semantics.

Bob

[Yetti]

So not much time on a G1000 or as a pilot.   Went on a flight to Austin and back and miscalculated time of sunset.   Did not really know where the turn up the display knobs on the panel were.   So basically no instruments.   did not even skip a beat just landed and put the plane away.  

As far as stalls go forget to reset the trim on the mooney and you will risk a departure stall....  You better be training to push down with haste.

[gsxrpilot]

FWIW I was taught to fly by an older, very high time, extremely experienced CFI. He taught me to ignore the ASI and fly AOA by looking out the window. I've only got 900 hours and all of it in piston singles. But I can't imagine that there's a piston single out there that I couldn't launch and land easily with the pitot cover securely in place.

[Robert C.]

I started in gliders, many years ago. Standard part of the final checkout before flying passengers was to fly a checkride with the ASI covered up. That way the instructor could verify you knew how to use your ears (slipstream = speed), fly attitude and sight picture. (as an aside...put 5-10 gliders in a thermal and you really, really, don't ever want to look inside the cockpit; you're way to busy making sure you know where the other guys are and you completely fly by the seat of your pants and the sound of the slipstream).

When working on my PPL my instructor pulled a fast one on me. Put some clear plastic tape on the pitot tube. I found it during the pre-flight and figured I passed that little test. Later the next day during a fuel stop he hussled me back into the plane without doing a full walk around. The b%*&strd had of course taped over the pitot again. I puzzled at the weird ASI reading during the takeoff roll but everything else looked and sounded fine so didn't realize fully what he had done until after lift off and we flew the 25 min to home base without a correct ASI. Non-event as my ears, airplane "feel" and attitude were sufficient to the task of a simple flight.

Good training. If you have never done that or it has been years since you flew with a covered up ASI you may want to ask an instructor to do a bit of a refresher on that excersize. Never know when it may come in handy

[N9201A]

Here's one take from AOPA's pubs that pretty much sums it up for me:

"Slow flight and stalls are important skills. They not only prepare your students for the task of learning to land, they teach just how versatile the aircraft is, and how to handle an inadvertent foray into the lower end of the performance arena. Just as a golfer must practice getting out of a sand trap, students must practice getting out of both an imminent and an actual stall. And like the golfer, it is important to keep the skills sharp with regular practice."

I practice. But I do fly much better than I golf, maybe because being an unpracticed golfer won't kill my pax, a bystander or me.

[N9201A]

Re age, Chuck it's an interesting question you raise. I'm not sure there is an age correlation.

But I'm convinced, reading enough of these posts, there is definitely a "mindset" correlation. The guys who've figured it all out don't need to practice. They've got it all down already. Since I don't, I'll keep practicing.

Then again, maybe age is just a mindset, too...?

[201er]

1 hour ago, Bob - S50 said:

Well see?  There's a big difference right there.  Here is how I think about those two methods.

Flying by airspeed.  Referencing the airspeed indicator to maintain the speed determined to be proper for the situation.  For example, if I am solo and am returning to the airport with 10 gallons remaining, my target speed on final will be 62 KIAS.  If I am coming back to land because one of my passengers suddenly decided they need to pee and I'm at almost max gross weight, my target speed on final will be 72 KIAS.

Is your purpose to fly a particular airspeed or a particular angle of attack in each phase of the traffic pattern?

[Guitarmaster]

In Marauders absence please let me end this now.

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Nooooooo. Chuck.. why did you have to go there!

[Marauder]

In Marauders absence please let me end this now.

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I'm so, so proud of you! It brings tears to my eyes .

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[Yetti]

Yaw string... works on sailboats and gliders, and jet fighters.  That's what we need more of.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yaw_string

 

[Guest]

8 hours ago, cnoe said:

In Marauders absence please let me end this now.

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I don't think you have to worry about AoA with her.  If you get her in a Mooney it will never fly.

Is she a hand me down from Chris?

Clarence

[Bob - S50]

10 hours ago, 201er said:

Is your purpose to fly a particular airspeed or a particular angle of attack in each phase of the traffic pattern?

My goal is to not die or bend metal.  I've calculated stall speed at different weights and then multiplied those times 1.3 to come up with a final approach speed.  Since I don't yank and bank on final I'm essentially 1G level flight on final so those speeds keep me safe (and yes, at an appropriate AOA).  I use a formula based on weight to come up with my approach speed.  Since I rarely (if ever) exceed 30 degrees of bank on base, the extra 15 knots is plenty of stall margin.  And, yes, I have plenty of time upside down and 90 degrees of bank at 9G's to know that wing loading is what counts.

And for what it's worth, all those speeds are with full flaps.  I add 10 knots to all speeds for no flaps.