Walk away? Run away? Or is there something here...

[Doggtyred]

let me start with "I am not ready to buy, and I am not buying this plane". I am asking those who are smarter than me "what am I missing, if anything". 

This is a 1982 M20K 231. LB1 without a Merlin. Bank Repo. In the pictures looks quite nice and appealing. Thats where most of the good news ends. Total time 2460. Original engine was Factory Reman in 1990, 895 hrs ago. Topped at 687 hrs in 2007. Has had 208 hrs since 2007. Prop last overhauled 232 hrs ago in 2008. 

 Logs are missing. Partially reconstructed logs reviewed. Plane spent a lot of time outdoors in California. Last annual able to be reconstructed in documentation was Sept 2013 at 2449 hrs.. so in last two years its had 10.6 engine hours, and I'm sure most of that was to get from Cali to Arlington, Texas. Last annual before able to be reconstructed was from 2008. Reviewed what logs were there/able to be reconstructed. Lots of hoses and wearables replaced in the 2008 annual. 

You guys who have done this, knowing what you know about these planes would you even give it consideration? Is the recommended offer even close to what you would value this, given the limited information we have listed here? If I was to go look at this plane, what would be the must-checks/must do's in a comprehensive prebuy. Or by chance does one of you have personal knowledge of this airframe? My gut tells me to run away, given the very low useage in the past decade. If purchased, I would approach it from the standpoint that the engine is liable to need replacement and ANY meaningful time is just a bonus. Airframe issues/corrosion issues to look for?

http://www.vanbortel.com/aircraft-for-sale/aircraft-inventory/685/1982-mooney-231-se-m20k

http://www.controller.com/listings/aircraft/for-sale/1434527/1982-mooney-m20k-231?dlr=1&pcid=99&sfc=1&ssc=1&src=0&sps=0&ftr=0&if=1

http://www.vanbortel.com/files/N1163W-2.pdf

http://flightaware.com/resources/registration/N1163W

Edited August 21, 2016 by Doggtyred

[rainman]

There are so many good 231s without question marks out there, why bother with this one at this price. For another $15K you can get an updated version without the drama. 

[Jerry 5TJ]

Good summary, rainman.

There are lots of 1960-1980 vintage Mooneys in the fleet that are beyond the point of any sane restoration.   Unless you are motivated to bring one back to life for some non-economic reason it's easier and cheaper to find an example that hasn't slid so far down the path of decay.

 

Doggtyred, to directly answer your question: Look through this site as there are scores of threads that start with "What do you guys think of this plane?"

The replies could be formed into a useful pamphlet on "what to look for in a used Mooney" based on hundreds of owner-years of experience.  

 

 

 

[TTaylor]

To put this in context.  I bought my F as a repo about four years ago.   It was missing logbooks and sitting on the ramp in Nashville.  It had been in a hangar for about three years before the bank could find it.   

I paid about 40 cents on the dollar for what it was worth retail.   I took the risk but also took steps to minimize the risk.  I made the purchase contingent on a pre buy inspection. 

The logbooks are a significant part of the value of the plane.  If you want to sell the plane the value will be significantly less and it will be much harder to sell.  This is where due diligence can pay off.  What the bank and broker did not know is I had tracked down the previous owner and had acquired the logbooks before I completed the purchase.   

There are still risks.  An engine sitting for a few years can be toast.  Also there will enviably be lots of things that need to be fixed.  I spent about $8,000 on the first annual and maintenance over the first year.   I was lucky the engine appears to not have suffered from sitting so long.  

I would not pay more than 50 cents on the dollar without logs, current annual, and recent flight time.  

Tim 

[bradp]

^^ That.  They are asking for entirely too much percent of actual value for a plane that has logs missing (and were not talking a single logbook from 30 years ago) and hasn't flown at all. 

I'd consider the risk if they offered it for 55k and you did due diligence up down and sideways.  

[KSMooniac]

Agree with everything above...they're at least 20k too high given the story with this plane. Still might be worth pursuing if you think they're flexible. I don't recall seeing them list a Mooney before, so they might not have a good handle on the value deductions. Just don't get in heat over it!

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[peevee]

2 hours ago, KSMooniac said:

Agree with everything above...they're at least 20k too high given the story with this plane. Still might be worth pursuing if you think they're flexible. I don't recall seeing them list a Mooney before, so they might not have a good handle on the value deductions. Just don't get in heat over it!

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

It's a suggested offer. At 50k I'd probably bite if I was in a position to. 

[Doggtyred]

I am getting the impression that the value is being set by the bank/lienholder (plus consignment commission) and they are trying to come out golden. I'm also getting the impression from the very minimal run time and documented history of being outside that there is both internal engine corrosion, as well as potential airframe issues. 

I appreciate the input, the price points, and for what its worth, I'm slowly working my way back through the forums for relevant threads.. I'm back to 2015 so far, and still going.. 

Looks like the good doctor who owned the plane before had a malpractice judgement in 2012, and isn't practicing anymore. 

Edited August 22, 2016 by Doggtyred

[Rustler]

While a lot of owners never bother to consider engine time between overhauls, if I were thinking about this aircraft, I'd quote Continental's published guidance of overhauling that engine every 12 years. While you might find it doesn't need it, that gives you a bargaining chip with the seller. Banks generally don't know diddly about aircraft values and they price accordingly. You could have a gem her, or you could have a piece of coal. I'd tell them it would take at least $35K to overhaul the engine and offer them $50K, less whatever else a good pre-buy indicated. Rainman gave you good advice.

[Alan Fox]

24 minutes ago, Rustler said:

While a lot of owners never bother to consider engine time between overhauls, if I were thinking about this aircraft, I'd quote Continental's published guidance of overhauling that engine every 12 years. While you might find it doesn't need it, that gives you a bargaining chip with the seller. Banks generally don't know diddly about aircraft values and they price accordingly. You could have a gem her, or you could have a piece of coal. I'd tell them it would take at least $35K to overhaul the engine and offer them $50K, less whatever else a good pre-buy indicated. Rainman gave you good advice.

Let me put this in a nice way , You are not schooling VanBortel on the finer points of aircraft sales , He is one of the largest aircraft dealers in the country , Maybe the world.....Do your due diligence and make your offer ,  This is an aircraft that you will never be able to sell anywhere close to vRef .... Ever .....  There are too many other qualified aircraft with logs.....

[RangerJim]

Rainman and Jerry 5TJ are spot on.  Good quality 231's appear to be sharply undervalued in todays market.  They are fine cross country transportation and the value shopper will want to look hard at the model.   Spend some time talking to Jimmy Garrison at All American Aircraft and check out some of his offerings on line and in person before you get blindsided by the pretty paint job and shiny sales hangar deck on this one.  Someday you will be looking to move up, down, or on and then the history on this one will be working against you.  There are no doubt many other broker/dealers that can supply you with a worthy 231/252 at a fair price and I have no experience with Van Bortel whatsoever.  Paul Loewen at LASAR and Don Maxwell are two more priceless resources that operate first class MSCs.  Call and see if they have clients with quality equipment and records that are considering selling.  I can report first hand straight talk and fair dealings at AAA, liens, logs and titles all in order, and the willingness to again represent your aircraft to the market when it is time for you to move on.

Like it or not missing logs can mean a plane that is worth more as parts than the costs to to get high enough on the sand pile to be safe for you and yours.  Yeah there are always a few who find a diamond in the rough and this may be one but unless you have access to MSC level expertise at very low prices then I would look at a lot more 231/252s before taking on this one.

 

Edited August 22, 2016 by RangerJim
typo

[KSMooniac]

It could have some value, but you'd have to have a thorough inspection to see if it has been damaged in the past. The deduction for missing logs is sizeable, but decreases for each year going forward with new records, so if you plan to keep it a long time that might be an advantage in buying it cheaper vs selling in 10+ years.

The panel is fairly vintage, though, except for the 430. ADS-B compliance will cost several AMU's. The A/P components might have suffered from sitting, much like the engine. Ditto for the gyros. There is a lot of potential to spend money soon after it goes back in service vs. a plane that has been flying regularly.

It still might be a gem, though, and only a good inspection will tell you that. Perhaps the tanks were done before paint? Who knows right now.

Sent from my VS985 4G using Tapatalk

[gsxrpilot]

Even if you bought this one at $50K, there is no way you could get it into the same condition as any of the 231/252's on the market for the difference in price.  Unless you're an A&P yourself, you have the facility and tools, and your time is counted as free.  But even then you still have the problem of logs. Unfortunately there is no amount of restoration that can ever completely make up for effectively NO previous logs. 

I'm not sure there's enough here for Alan to consider parting out.  

Airplanes are not cars. If you can't afford to buy one the way you like it, you damn sure can't afford to restore one.

[glafaille]

There are some folks that don't care a bit about missing logs, some are here on mooneyspace.  From now on, this small subset of people are the only ones that would consider this plane if YOU were selling it.  Why buy something that will only appeal to a fraction of all Mooney buyers?

I say pass, unless you can buy it stupid cheap, which is NOT where it is right now.

 

 

[INA201]

If you are up for it, call the previous owner.  You may discover where the logbooks ended up.  You could also get some information from the shops he used.  There is always a story.  Stories are good.  It also makes for a good thread!  

[Doggtyred]

49 minutes ago, INA201 said:

If you are up for it, call the previous owner.  You may discover where the logbooks ended up.  You could also get some information from the shops he used.  There is always a story.  Stories are good.  It also makes for a good thread!  

It does, indeed... and IF I was in a position to seriously consider it, that would be one of my first things to track him down. But even WITH logs the limited information I am seeing here tells me that this plane has flown very little in the past 8 years, and almost none in the past two.... That is some serious hangar/ramp queen street cred in my non-owner mind... I came from a club where the busiest plane was getting its 100 hr every month or so, and the slowest one still flew 150 or more hours a year.. 

[Seth]

Van Bortel repossess aircraft from time to time.  I put a bid in for a repossessed 252 in 2011.  

I made a deal for $88,000 for the bird knowing the engine was a run out.  That's when good 252's were still going for $200k.  I went down to Texas, did the prebuy, and walked away from the deal.  It was in poor shape.

However the pre approved financing I later used for the purchase of my Missile as it was still "good" to make up the difference between my Missile and the sale of my F.  Can't believe it's been 5 years of the Missile and 8 years of total aircraft ownership.

Van Bortel is a well respected operation.  I'm sure they'll negotiate somewhat.  See how low they'll go.  They'll be reasonable understanding the resale later on will be significantly lower with no logs prior to now.

 

-Seth

[carusoam]

1) When spending large sums of money, I would need all the Ts crossed and Is dotted...

2) 80AMU spent on a plane I can't use for some reason is going to look really bad in front of my finance administrator.

3) No logs means the next AD that comes out where the FAA requires you to check the serial number on a Crankshaft or nut or bolt inside the engine would require opening up the engine to read a serial number? There is no paper trail to follow.

4) Some diamonds in the rough are better for diamond dealers to have...

5) Why are the logs missing?

6) Somebody is unhappy with the bank and could be taking it out on the plane?  Often expensive maintenance stops being performed long before a repo ever takes place.

7) When you don't know, it may be better to just stay away...

8) If you can negotiate the price accordingly to account for all the S/Ns that can't be seen, and rebuild the logs, you are strong enough to answer the original question...

9) the engine builder has a copy of the original build sheets.  Prop builder would have documentation as well.  But there is no record to demonstrate that the machinery hasn't been OHd with parts being swapped out.

10) In the eyes of the FAA (and other gov't organizations).... if it isn't written down, it didn't happen...  A plane without proper documents doesn't exist.

11) what's the chance of being caught not having the proper documents..?  First time you take it in for annual your mechanic says 'just leave the logs in the plane....'  There is a lot of information that needs to be checked for compliance.

12) Every now and then a plane gets ramp checked.  There is a thread here called F the FAA... A tale of how the FAA walks down a row of planes and selects a Mooney with hangar rash to be checked...

13) when being chased by lions, you don't have to be the fastest gazelle... Just don't stand out looking like the slowest.

14) just writing the question would be enough for me to know what my feelings were saying.

15) Should I stay or should I go....

Sorry got to go...

16) On the other hand...  What keeps you from calling an MSC and tell them you want to rebuild the logs for that plane.  Can they quote building the documentation that is required?  Or is it physically an impossible task?  If it is a 10AMU exercise, buy the service as part of the PPI.  A written purchase agreement to make sure everything is in place is going to be important.  Seek professional advice on this.

These are only PP ideas. Not a mechanic or lawyer.

Best regards,

-a-

[MB65E]

George is amazing to work with!! All he wants is you to be happy with your purchase so that you work with him again on your next purchase. The lead IA he has in the shop is really great. They have some highly experienced guys that work there. I was impressed when I went to look at T182T for a future owner. I had some extremely nit-pickey stuff I wanted to fix. I told George I wanted a few things addressed. We chatted about 30 minutes after I brought up those items. When I walked back to the plane... The stuff was fixed!! I mean Done!! This always on a 10 yo USED airplane. He takes this stuff seriously!!  Better service at his shop than when we roll up in a Citation at a service center. If his IA performs the annual, you'll have a straight airplane.

The guy that brought that 252 to George, probably upgraded to a new Columbia or 182. I wish more places had his work ethic. 

He takes care of his guys too.   A few have been their for over 25 years. They respond "yes sir" to George. 

George probably will take a serious hit on this 252. However, he most likely made a new sale with the prior owner, he'll hopefully sell this one, and maybe the owner will come back and buy a new airplane one day from him. 

Good luck, 

-Matt

[Doggtyred]

My google-fu tells  me the good doctor who owned this plane from 2008 until repo in Dec 2015 was an orthopedic surgeon. He reported a malpractice claim for low 6 figures in 2013. He has since not renewed his license and is delinquent on that. No idea if that was his only one (claim), but must have not been able to secure insurance afterwards. So his practice is closed and he's likely without income. I dont think he had it out for the bank, per se..  but I dont think he's buying planes anymore. What I CAN come up with tells me he didn't fly it much to begin with. 

[djkling]

17 hours ago, Doggtyred said:

My google-fu tells  me the good doctor who owned this plane from 2008 until repo in Dec 2015 was an orthopedic surgeon. He reported a malpractice claim for low 6 figures in 2013. He has since not renewed his license and is delinquent on that. No idea if that was his only one (claim), but must have not been able to secure insurance afterwards. So his practice is closed and he's likely without income. I dont think he had it out for the bank, per se..  but I dont think he's buying planes anymore. What I CAN come up with tells me he didn't fly it much to begin with. 

As a physician I can tell you with certainty that a six-figure claim is nothing.  Especially low six figures.  Insurance pays that pretty fast.  Most are $1mil/$3min policies.  His non-renewal means a lot more.  Either it was a "sentinel event" and he expected more, he didnt have insurance (no hospital will allow you to operate without insurance though), or his practice took a lot of hits. you can look him up on the state medical board if you like.  I know docs with as many as 9 claims who still have a VERY easy time getting insurance.  Believe it or not, lawsuits (usually frivolous) are so common that it barely registers when we hear about them.  

 

Best guess: he left medicine.  Lots of docs cant handle the suit or the current medical climate and are leaving at a record rate.  Most just go into other fields since having a doctoral degree is pretty remarkable to almost any employer.  

But if he was allowing a reposession I can tell you one thing: he didnt care about it, didnt maintenance it, and certainly didn't fly it.  I would probably not take the risk unless you can find him and get the logs.