making a tiny bit of metal

[amillet]

That's what I found in our 1800 hour TTSNEW engine after returning from Oshkosh last year. Now have factory rebuilt.  I didn't feel comfortable trying to get a couple hundred more hours on the first engine

[cnoe]

2 hours ago, MooneyBob said:

I don't know. It doesn't even feel like a metal. It feels like magnetized dust. I think I will re washed it in the spirits again.

 I'm curious if you use a Tempest or Champion filter. If Tempest do you check the filter-magnet for similar contaminants? Are there any?

I don't think there's anything too concerning about what you're seeing. These engines are going to exhibit "wear" over time and I'd much rather see "magnetized dust" than "bits and pieces". It's just a guess but if you took all that material away from the magnet I bet it would take up 1/4 the volume.

Jetdriven is the one who is a proponent of this inspection method. He is absolutely right that it will show you precisely what's in the filter. I'd worry too much if I saw that so I'll stick to looking for contaminants that are visible to the naked eye (and a magnet sweep in the filter pleats). That and regular oil analysis.

[MooneyBob]

16 minutes ago, cnoe said:

 I'm curious if you use a Tempest or Champion filter. If Tempest do you check the filter-magnet for similar contaminants? Are there any?

I don't think there's anything too concerning about what you're seeing. These engines are going to exhibit "wear" over time and I'd much rather see "magnetized dust" than "bits and pieces". It's just a guess but if you took all that material away from the magnet I bet it would take up 1/4 the volume.

Jetdriven is the one who is a proponent of this inspection method. He is absolutely right that it will show you precisely what's in the filter. I'd worry too much if I saw that so I'll stick to looking for contaminants that are visible to the naked eye (and a magnet sweep in the filter pleats). That and regular oil analysis.

I use Tempest filter with magnet. There is absolutely nothing on the magnet in the filter. That's why I was so surprised. The magnets I use ( and you can see I have bunch of them stacked) are so strong that it breaks if you try to pull them apart. 

[DXB]

7 hours ago, MooneyBob said:

 

Wow! I'm dying to know the answer on this one. I used to wash my filter in mineral spirits and strain through a shop towel before becoming convinced this step was unnecessary, in absence of any other concerns. But your experience would seem to suggest otherwise.  Was there anything else suspicious that made you do it?    I would obsess over a few minute silver flecks in the towel and find nothing that would stick to a magnet.  Your stuff is obviously ferrous, and there's a whole lot of it.  Seems likely to be a big deal to my untrained eye - I hope the gurus on here chime in and tell me that I'm wrong.  

[Guest]

With that amount of ferrous metal I would be doing some investigation.  If I were a betting man I'd say your cam and lifter are on your magnet.  Pulling a few cylinders will answer the question.

Clarence

[MooneyBob]

3 hours ago, DXB said:

Wow! I'm dying to know the answer on this one. I used to wash my filter in mineral spirits and strain through a shop towel before becoming convinced this step was unnecessary, in absence of any other concerns. But your experience would seem to suggest otherwise.  Was there anything else suspicious that made you do it?    I would obsess over a few minute silver flecks in the towel and find nothing that would stick to a magnet.  Your stuff is obviously ferrous, and there's a whole lot of it.  Seems likely to be a big deal to my untrained eye - I hope the gurus on here chime in and tell me that I'm wrong.  

Elevated iron in the oil analysis repot made me to take a closer look. I am not panicking and I will keep flying and keep my eye on the things but I will start to look for somwbody to help me to investigate this one. Probably pull the cylinders would be a good idea. 

I was always afraid that something like this happens since I bought the plane with new engine installed in 1999 and they fly only 485 hrs until I bought the plane in 2014. I have put over 450 hrs on the engine since then. 

[DVA]

Just now, MooneyBob said:

Elevated iron in the oil analysis repot made me to take a closer look. I am not panicking and I will keep flying and keep my eye on the things but I will start to look for somwbody to help me to investigate this one. Probably pull the cylinders would be a good idea. 

I think you are getting a false sense of the actual quantity of engine material in that sample. I bet if you sent that out for dry particle analysis (not a bad idea) you'll find that the 60% or greater is non metallic and just plain dirt. The oil filter is doing its job - if you think of all of the pieces parts that are touching and rubbing as that engine spins over the lifetime of the oil change you’d think there should be so much more. I would go through another oil change, but next time simply send the oil filter out to Second Oilpinion or another service. If you get your oil looked at by Blackstone, I think they’ll help you with that.

I wouldn’t pull cylinders unless factual and corroborating information mandated it.

DVA

[Guest]

If the amount of material on your magnet is normal as is being suggested, why don't we find this in everyone's oil filter?  Oil sampling will likely show normal wear metals and say the oil is good, the filter tells the truth.  Continued operation with the cam and lifters shedding metal(the most common failure in a Lycoming will impregnate your piston skirts, score your cylinder walls, gouge your oil pump body and then stop in your filter.

Clarence

[jetdriven]

It also trashes the prop governor.  That's a lot of iron fines.  I wouldn't fly it at night. 

[DXB]

Is it possible to miss that much material on visual inspection of the filter - either just looking between pleats or cutting it and spreading it out?  If so I'm going to go back to using the mineral spirits...

[ArtVandelay]

Is it possible to miss that much material on visual inspection of the filter - either just looking between pleats or cutting it and spreading it out?  If so I'm going to go back to using the mineral spirits...

Do you need the mineral spirits, seems to me the magnet is all you need, especially since it doesn't leave you with clean metal anyway?

[MooneyBob]

6 hours ago, DXB said:

Is it possible to miss that much material on visual inspection of the filter - either just looking between pleats or cutting it and spreading it out?  If so I'm going to go back to using the mineral spirits...

I have cut open the filter, cut out the pleats and visually inspected it every single time since I bought the plane in 2014. I put 450 hours on the engine. I also used the mineral spirits and coffee filter method. But I just kind of run the pleats through mineral spirit. This is the first time i used the mineral spirit aggressive washing and strong rare earth magnet method. As I have mentioned before, there is absolutely nothing on the filter magnet ( Tempest filter ) . 

[Marauder]

Bob -- how did you cut open the filter and the pleats? I'm wondering if these fines are not from the cutting process.

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[MooneyBob]

22 hours ago, Marauder said:

Bob -- how did you cut open the filter and the pleats? I'm wondering if these fines are not from the cutting process.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

I don't think it is from the cutting process. I use the filter cutter that makes very fine thin cut and I am careful not to contaminate the filter even with the paint that peels off. I cut the pleats with very sharp knife and be careful not to cut into the metal part of the filter.

The pics below shows the substance from my filter that was attached to the rare earth magnet after washing the pleats in the min spirit.

It hardened over night and it was like very hard piece of coal. When I broke it and rubbed on the piece of paper towel and my fingers there is absolutely no visible metal particles. 

More confusion...

I put it last night in the aceton that is probably stronger than mineral spirits and will try to separate the clean metal parts today. 

 

[Marauder]

22 hours ago, Marauder said: Bob -- how did you cut open the filter and the pleats? I'm wondering if these fines are not from the cutting process.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

I don't think it is from the cutting process. I use the filter cutter that makes very fine thin cut and I am careful not to contaminate the filter even with the paint that peels off. I cut the pleats with very sharp knife and be careful not to cut into the metal part of the filter.

The pics below shows the substance from my filter that was attached to the rare earth magnet after washing the pleats in the min spirit.

It hardened over night and it was like very hard piece of coal. When I broke it and rubbed on the piece of paper towel and my fingers there is absolutely no visible metal particles. 

More confusion...

I put it last night in the aceton that is probably stronger than mineral spirits and will try to separate the clean metal parts today. 

 

You have a mystery on your hands (sorry couldn't resist). If it was making metal I would expect to see metal flakes, not just a metal slurry. Keep us posted.

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[mooniac15u]

29 minutes ago, MooneyBob said:

I don't think it is from the cutting process. I use the filter cutter that makes very fine thin cut and I am careful not to contaminate the filter even with the paint that peels off. I cut the pleats with very sharp knife and be careful not to cut into the metal part of the filter.

The pics below shows the substance from my filter that was attached to the rare earth magnet after washing the pleats in the min spirit.

It hardened over night and it was like very hard piece of coal. When I broke it and rubbed on the piece of paper towel and my fingers there is absolutely no visible metal particles. 

More confusion...

I put it last night in the aceton that is probably stronger than mineral spirits and will try to separate the clean metal parts today. 

 

Acetone isn't really any stronger it's just more polar. It will dissolve different things than the mineral spirits. When selecting a solvent just remember that "like dissolves like." So, if you want to wash away oily residue then you probably want something non-polar like mineral spirits. If you have something that may be more polar then acetone is a good choice. In general acetone will dissolve a lot of things so it's a good general purpose solvent. In this case it's probably a good choice since you are ultimately trying to remove everything but the metal. 

[cnoe]

I find this to be a very interesting thread; please keep us informed as to your determinations.

Let me start by stating that there are individuals on this forum who are demonstrably more qualified than me to make judgments and recommendations about such issues. My comments are more like rambling thoughts but... I have to wonder.

Do these qualify as "visible metal particles" or not? When you polarize them with a strong magnet then absolutely they do. When the magnet is gone then they appear to be nothing more than a "smudge". Has anybody ever cut open a brand new filter and looked at the color of the pleated filter material? When I cut my used ones open the material is not white. What makes oil appear darker; is it only carbon and such or is it also darkened by ferrous material? Your filter appears to be doing its job!

I also wonder if the cam/lifters show signs of spalling or pitting. I'd really like to know. But the material on your fingers looks more like the residue on my rag following a good spinner polishing. Maybe your cam/lifters simply look shiny and clean (I hope so for you).

I really don't want to go through this process with my own oil filter 'cause if I saw what's stuck to your magnet I'd be worried. But then again if it's a real problem developing, and you caught it really early in the process, you might be saving yourself some money. Thanks for your posts!

 

[DVA]

22 minutes ago, cnoe said:

Do these qualify as "visible metal particles" or not? When you polarize them with a strong magnet then absolutely they do. When the magnet is gone then they appear to be nothing more than a "smudge".

There is far more perfectly normal and expected “smudge” than significant metal in this view, as you correctly point out. The dirt, carbon, and oil that escaped the washing, attached to the tiny metal fragments, is significant. “Does this dress make my a$$ look fat?"

Most people (including A&P’s) do not go through a washing and straining of the filter, and then use a powerful magnet to yank out what’s left, so what we are seeing here may be perfectly normal, OR it may be very early signs of something else. My personal opinion which should not be relied on, is that it is the former.

I would still send the next filter out (unwashed) and have a dry particle analysis done, see if your iron (or other material) is going up in the next  analysis, and then seek the advice of a good A&P that can help you sort this out. 

DVA

[ArtVandelay]

Looks like carbon on your hands, what does the inside of the exhaust pipe look like?