V35B crash on Long Island

[PTK]

9 hours ago, Danb said:

Peter what program at UCAR are you using in your post above,  thanx.  Dan

Here you go Dan...

http://www2.mmm.ucar.edu/imagearchive/

[steingar]

I would have used the 2.5 hours of fuel remaining to fly to VFR conditions.

[Piloto]

10 hours ago, carusoam said:

Consider adding turbulence to this question...

partial panel while the remaining instruments are working normally is a cognitive challenge.  At lower levels, the turbulence can be quite choppy.  

Does your TC bounce around in the chop?  Are you able to keep the clean side up while following a bouncing TC?

I was pretty dissapointed after I saw this during IR training.  The partial panel exercise with the TC was good, until I experienced the turbulence.  The book didn't seem to cover what the real life training showed...

Shaking TC needles left me looking for a more usable plan B. An Electric vacuum system is pretty good.  Electric AI with it's own battery would make a great plan C. 

On the topic of portables...  One caveat, it has to be up and running, there might not be time to get it out, turn it on, pair the device and have it fall off the window or shelf...

Descending at thousands of feet per minute doesn't leave enough time for problem solving...

About me: I like choppy turbulence, practicing stalls, and IMC (not all at the same time, of course). I abhor flimsy plan Bs.

My definition of a flimsy plan B: mechanical vacuum pumps are expected to fail. The TC is the goto instrument. The TC may give more hard to follow information than real keep the wings level information in turbulence.

If the TC is your plan B for a common vacuum failure, make sure you can make it work In turbulence.

PP logic.  I am not a mechanic or CFI.

Best regards,

-a-

As the TC ages the damping characteristic degrades. A new one will work good in turbulence. Just don't over bank.

José

[Guest]

21 hours ago, carusoam said:

Lost More controls and more of the panel is what I believe he said.

What was going on beyond the vacuum being lost is hard to say.

Not even a brief 'holy crap that didn't work' just radar contact lost.

Another thing... the actual time of the recording is not the real life time.  The empty spaces have been removed...

Total distance from JFK to Hartford isn't that far.  2.5 hours of fuel is plenty.

Post it notes to cover failed instruments are good.

A brief practice on partial panel before entering IMC would be good.

not exceeding standard rate turns would be important.

an IR should be enough...

For icing on the cake...

a back-up vacuum pump.

A back-up Electric AI.

 

what actually happened and what really went wrong?

Best regards,

-a-

I'm curious, how many IFR flyers here have a back up attitude gyro in their planes? If so does it have a different power source, ie. vacuum and electric?  How many have a standby vacuum source, electrically driven pump or SVS system?  In my experience vacuum systems fail more than gyros.

Clarence

[Guest]

20 hours ago, jlunseth said:

I have a Stratus 2 and an iPad.  I wouldn't trust it for AI in IMC.  The Stratus can't move at all or the AI needs to be recalibrated.  I normally put mine on the window and it falls off often, it would come down in turbulence, and there you would be.  Some kind of RAM or glareshield mount that is solidly attached would be better.  I would rely on the TC, DG, Alt. and VSI before the Stratus.  

This is why certified systems like Aspen, G5/600/1000 have panel mounted back up gyros.

Clarence

[1524J]

1 hour ago, M20Doc said:

I'm curious, how many IFR flyers here have a back up attitude gyro in their planes? If so does it have a different power source, ie. vacuum and electric?  How many have a standby vacuum source, electrically driven pump or SVS system?  In my experience vacuum systems fail more than gyros.

Clarence

I've got a precise flight backup vacuum system and I just purchased, but haven't had a chance to use, a Stratus which I bought exclusively for the AHRS system since I use XM weather (although backup free weather and traffic is nice). I'll be disappointed if the PIREPS here are accurate. By the way Clarence, check my post about the Rapco vacuum pump....please.  

[Godfather]

1 hour ago, M20Doc said:

I'm curious, how many IFR flyers here have a back up attitude gyro in their planes? If so does it have a different power source, ie. vacuum and electric?  How many have a standby vacuum source, electrically driven pump or SVS system?  In my experience vacuum systems fail more than gyros.

I did install a backup electric AI because I was concerned about a vac/gyro failure at a critical phase of flight (low ifr approach).  I was mainly concerned that the distraction of the failure at an inopertune time would increase the pilot load when things get busy.

[Danb]

29 minutes ago, 1524J said:

I've got a precise flight backup vacuum system and I just purchased, but haven't had a chance to use, a Stratus which I bought exclusively for the AHRS system since I use XM weather (although backup free weather and traffic is nice). I'll be disappointed if the PIREPS here are accurate. By the way Clarence, check my post about the Rapco vacuum pump....please.  

Clarence the dumb thing Mooney did in the GX models was to put our standby gauges on the far right side of his panel. I'd like to find a place for a small unit to put in my field of vision.

[Piloto]

Worse than loosing your gyros is total electrical power failure such as a master relay failure during night flight in IFR conditions. The lack of electrical power takes away the lighting needed for your ASI, altimeter, VSI, vac gyros and others. To overcome this I sticked a Velcro strip underneath the glare shield. This allows me to attach a small LED flashlight to illuminate the panel. Navigation is provided by my Garmin Pilot on the cell phone.

José

[Guest]

29 minutes ago, Danb said:

Clarence the dumb thing Mooney did in the GX models was to put our standby gauges on the far right side of his panel. I'd like to find a place for a small unit to put in my field of vision.

I agree, it's not an ideal set up.  Our local avionics shop says he would not be able to legally install any glass panel and put the back ups so far away.  

Clarence

[aviatoreb]

29 minutes ago, Danb said:

Clarence the dumb thing Mooney did in the GX models was to put our standby gauges on the far right side of his panel. I'd like to find a place for a small unit to put in my field of vision.

When I purchased my airplane, I had a backup electric gyro attitude, but it was on the right side of the panel.  I had a stroboscope on the left side of the panel.  I decided stroboscope was less important to have always in my field of view at all times so I had the avionics shop swap their positions.  

As a third attitude source, I have the gdl39 3d/ipad arrangement as third line of defense.

Partial panel is great training and sharpens skills - it is very worthwhile.  But in actual, I would rather not loose attitude indication.

I bet the new to certified Dynon will be great.

[Bob_Belville]

On 5/6/2016 at 8:36 PM, teejayevans said:

Its the turn coordinator, at least for the 50

yes, and that's electric

[PTK]

I listened to the recording one more time. Here are the salient points I gather:

He declared the emergency before JFK. This is significant because he was fine VFR on top for a good while. He is asked by the controller what assistance does he require and provide fuel in pounds.

Tells the controller he is VFR on top and wants to avoid flying pp through the clouds and gives controller his fuel status of 2.5 hours. Is given best ceilings of 1600 to be at destination. This is significant because it was, after all, his destination and that may have provided him the validation he needed to continue on. The prospect that he still has to descend pp through about 5500 feet in clouds to get there took the back seat in his mind.

Valuable time was wasted. He did nothing to extricate himself from flying pp through the clouds, and the controller offered no suggestion to vector him!

Seems to me this whole exercise of pilot declaring an emx and back and forth with controller was just that an exercise. Neither one of them took it to the next level which is act on it, do something different, use all available information and resources. Instead they proceed business as usual and...three souls were lost.

Debris came down very near three schools too! Very lucky nobody on the ground was hurt or killed. 

 

[Godfather]

1 hour ago, PTK said:

Seems to me this whole exercise of pilot declaring an emx and back and forth with controller was just that an exercise. Neither one of them took it to the next level which is act on it, do something, use what you have, you're VFR on top with 2.5 hours of fuel. And three souls were lost.

I have to agree with this but that's easy for me to say after the fact with knowledge of what happened.

- it sounded like the controller questioned when the pilot declared an emergency (this might be a requirement) and from the recording kind of continued like business as usual.  However, there is only so much the controller could do.

- even after the fact on these two parallel threads I sense a stigma that any ifr pilot should be able to fly partial panel.  This might have caused the pilot to limit thinking of a course deviation of a couple hundred miles if possible or demanding more accommodation from the controller.

[Danb]

11 hours ago, aviatoreb said:

When I purchased my airplane, I had a backup electric gyro attitude, but it was on the right side of the panel.  I had a stroboscope on the left side of the panel.  I decided stroboscope was less important to have always in my field of view at all times so I had the avionics shop swap their positions.  

As a third attitude source, I have the gdl39 3d/ipad arrangement as third line of defense.

Partial panel is great training and sharpens skills - it is very worthwhile.  But in actual, I would rather not loose attitude indication.

I bet the new to certified Dynon will be great.

Eric the new dynon would fit the bill nicely except the lack of space to put it with those big screens in the way I have the stratus and mini linked to horizon if needed. Practicing instrument loss utilizing the gauges on the far right is difficult and tiring. All the knuckleheads had to do is move the screen (MFD) to the right and put the instruments to the right of the PFD. 

[jackn]

12 hours ago, aviatoreb said:

When I purchased my airplane, I had a backup electric gyro attitude, but it was on the right side of the panel.  I had a stroboscope on the left side of the panel.  I decided stroboscope was less important to have always in my field of view at all times so I had the avionics shop swap their positions.  

As a third attitude source, I have the gdl39 3d/ipad arrangement as third line of defense.

Partial panel is great training and sharpens skills - it is very worthwhile.  But in actual, I would rather not loose attitude indication.

I bet the new to certified Dynon will be great.

Erik,

not sure if I had missed something or you're pulling legs, but why do you have a stroboscope in your panel. 

[Bob_Belville]

2 minutes ago, jackn said:

Erik,

not sure if I had missed something or you're pulling legs, but why do you have a stroboscope in your panel. 

Mrs. Malaprop, spellcheck, senior moment... I'm assuming "stormscope".

[jackn]

Ah, early AM out here in Phoenix. 

[PTK]

43 minutes ago, jackn said:

...why do you have a stroboscope in your panel. 

Well...to perform a visual inspection of the prop in flight, of course! You don't have one Jack?

[jackn]

I know he's a physicist with fancy propellers, so, who knows. 

[aviatoreb]

46 minutes ago, jackn said:

Erik,

not sure if I had missed something or you're pulling legs, but why do you have a stroboscope in your panel. 

Ooops - that is the apple autocorrect.  It never heard of stormscope so so it autocorrected it for me - to stroboscope.  It is pretty funny some of the stuff it thinks you meant sometimes.

How about a stroboscope for night flying in the clouds?  :-)  That would be hard.

[aviatoreb]

1 hour ago, Danb said:

Eric the new dynon would fit the bill nicely except the lack of space to put it with those big screens in the way I have the stratus and mini linked to horizon if needed. Practicing instrument loss utilizing the gauges on the far right is difficult and tiring. All the knuckleheads had to do is move the screen (MFD) to the right and put the instruments to the right of the PFD. 

Oh - do you have a G1000?  If so I was presuming not, so more flexibility to rearrange the instruments like moving furniture around the living room.

[aviatoreb]

31 minutes ago, PTK said:

Well...to perform a visual inspection of the prop in flight, of course! You don't have one Jack?

For fun, if you get bored, its challenging to count prop revolutions out in your head for a minute and compare to the rpm reading.

[1524J]

3 hours ago, PTK said:

I listened to the recording one more time. Here are the salient points I gather:

He declared the emergency before JFK. This is significant because he was fine VFR on top for a good while. He is asked by the controller what assistance does he require and provide fuel in pounds.

Tells the controller he is VFR on top and wants to avoid flying pp through the clouds and gives controller his fuel status of 2.5 hours. Is given best ceilings of 1600 to be at destination. This is significant because it was, after all, his destination and that may have provided him the validation he needed to continue on. The prospect that he still has to descend pp through about 5500 feet in clouds to get there took the back seat in his mind.

Valuable time  was wasted. He did nothing to extricate himself from flying pp through the clouds, and the controller offered no suggestion to vector him!

Seems to me this whole exercise of pilot declaring an emx and back and forth with controller was just that an exercise. Neither one of them took it to the next level which is act on it, do something different, use all available information and resources. Instead they proceed business as usual and...three souls were lost.

Debris came down very near three schools too! Very lucky nobody on the ground was hurt or killed. 

 

I still believe the unknown was the other panel failures he declared after losing the AI. Is the communication on the recording real time or has it been edited? The lesson I take away, at this point, is when you have a failure of any critical instrument in IMC conditions, act quickly to improve your situation regardless of backup instruments. Still, that's easy to say as I sit here.......

[Danb]

Erik-- I was wondering if you could put the dynon on the glare shield just up against the center post. I'm putting my iPhone 6s(the large size) using a glare shield clip and mount right in front of the pilot connected to stratus and horizon, if it works I'll send you a picture. I'm trying a lot of different setups for my journey to Texas alone. Any guidance would be helpful.