V35B crash on Long Island

[jackn]

This is the audio from the final moments of this man's life. What would you have done. Think about it.

 http://www.liveatc.net/forums/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=13198.0;attach=8859

 

[PTK]

Very, very sad. May they rest in peace. Prayers for the ones they leave behind.

Not playing monday morning qb here. I don't know the circumstances this poor gentleman was facing. Simply thinking out loud in answering your question. 

He declared the emergency and when asked by the controller what help he needs he states, in a cliche kind of manner, he wants clear weather and to avoid flying partial panel through the clouds. The controller responds "...I wish I could..." to the clear weather bit.  Yet he elects, sounding unsure but trying to justify, to fly to the destination because it has the best ceiling at 1600. Knowing he'll have to come down in 5500 feet worth of clouds. All this with 2.5 hours of fuel on board! This seems to contradict what he is telling the controller. My impression is he was unsure as to his decision making and looking for help from the controller. 

One thing that was drilled into my head by my instruments professor during IFR training was "...know where your nearest VFR weather is at all times...and if you don't know ask..."

With 2.5 hours of fuel couldn't he stay VFR above and fly to VFR? If he didn't know couldn't he have asked? 

[carusoam]

Is there another way to pick up the recording?  My iPad isn't making the jump to light speed on the link.

Best regards,

-a-

Solution found:  Refresh the web page and it plays...

[jlunseth]

We don't know the circumstances.  I completely agree with PTK, the first thing I would do is figure out whether I can get VFR somewhere, anywhere, no matter how inconvenient that might be.  But it is possible there was no VFR within range.

I have not flown partial panel since my Instrument checkride and that is quite awhile ago.  I think I need to do some practice.  VFR practice.

[ArtVandelay]

Boy, having a AP that uses a TC (STEC) could be a lifesaver

[bonal]

First my thoughts for the departed and prayer to the remaining, What I would have done is get vectors to VFR conditions. If none within range and I may be ignorant here but my Garmin has a full panel display as does my Fore flight  so I guess as a vfr pilot stupid enough to be stuck on top (meaning me) I would engage the AP fly the provided vectors descend as directed by ATC using my GPS as my back up panel let the AP fly the plane  and only worry about setting up my rate of descent. I don't know if he had something that could have been used as a back up. Not trying to second guess but the question was asked and I thought I would answer from a vfr into imc point of view. Correct me if I'm wrong but my STEC can fly the NAV even with failed vacuum... RIP

[carqwik]

Another reason why BK needs to get their act together on getting the KI300 to the market soon!!  RIP to the victims.

[jlunseth]

Be careful with that idea.  What drives the STEC?  In my 231, with a KFC200, the AI drives the AP.  Lose the AI because of a loss of vacuum and the AP will try to steer to the failing AI.  It will take the AI gyro a while to wind down, but when it does it becomes increasingly inaccurate and then tumbles, and if you are flying on the AP at that point so do you.  So in the event of an AI failure, the first thing to do is disconnect the AP.

I found that out one day when the vacuum failed in VFR.  The AI seemed fine for awhile so I left it connected.  The next thing I knew we were in a steep climb because the AI was falling.  That puts you in the position of having to correct from an unusual flight attitude you could have prevented just by disconnecting the AI.

Find out what drtives your STEC, I am pretty sure it is the AI.

Edited May 6, 2016 by jlunseth

[ArtVandelay]

Be careful with that idea.  What drives the STEC?  In my 231, with a KFC200, the AI drives the AP.  Lose the AI because of a loss of vacuum and the AP will try to steer to the failing AI.  It will take the AI gyro a while to wind down, but when it does it becomes increasingly inaccurate and then tumbles, and if you are flying on the AP at that point so do you.  So in the event of an AI failure, the first thing to do is disconnect the AP.

Find out what drtives your STEC, I am pretty sure it is the AI.

Its the turn coordinator, at least for the 50

[DXB]

It sounds like this guy was a competent and experienced instrument pilot who simply lost orientation when his vac failed, and nuances on  his decision making under pressure can (and should) be constructively critiqued after the fact.  

I am not even instrument rated, so inevitably am naive about some issues here. But what strikes me is how easily cheap, modern, portable technology with long battery life (e.g. AHRS on stratus/foreflight) can convert this grave situation into a serious but readily manageable one for even a less capable pilot.  The margins added by such cheap technology in IMC seem at least on par with expensive backup systems installed in aircraft like extra vacs, batteries, alternators, electric AIs, vac-independent A/Ps, chutes...     It would be nice to see everybody flying in IMC with the stratus-type portable AHRS backup, which is convenient and accessible to every pilot budget, so we don't have to read about this particular flavor of tragedy.

[jlunseth]

6 minutes ago, teejayevans said:

Boy, having a AP that uses a TC (STEC) could be a lifesaver

If its the TC, then you need to watch for a TC failure.  The flag on the TC is pretty smalll.  Mine gave up the ghost earlier this year and I had it replaced.  I noticed it during a taxi and IFR check ( always steer left and right on the taxiway to check instruments).  I am pretty sure it had not been working well before that, I just had not noticed it.  On the bench it turned out it was sticking, not indicating, and then spontaneously working again.  Nothing in the panel is invulnerable.

[bonal]

I edited my comment to add the question about the RNAV which I can direct AP to, so would VOR still fail with vacuum.  This is valuable info.

[Deb]

There is extensive discussion of this tragedy on Beechtalk: http://www.beechtalk.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=41&t=122787

Salient points:

1) Use the turn coordinator to keep wings level; consider using only rudder to turn.

2) Airspeed, altimeter and VSI to to maintain pitch attitude.

3) Consider lowering the landing gear to reduce speed.

4) Some rate based autopilots use a turn coordinator (STEC, for example); they can at least keep the wings level. (Edit: Sorry, this has been posted and discussed).

5) Consider installing an electric AI as a standby instrument.

[bonal]

To DXB as another VFR guy even with back up I know I would have a very hard time controlling it once I was in the IMC.  And assuming my AP was NG and knowing my plane fly's hands free I would request updated headings from ATC keep my control inputs to a minimum not let my brain trick me into thinking something that's not and keep a sharp eye on the Garmin to confirm what's going on.

[Piloto]

2 hours ago, jackn said:

This is the audio from the final moments of this man's life. What would you have done. Think about it.

 http://www.liveatc.net/forums/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=13198.0;attach=8859

 

It is not clear if the lack of gyro instruments was the cause of the crash. But even if you loose gyro vacuum you should be able to control the plane by the turn coordinator, altimeter, VSI and compass. Lindbergh's Spirit of St. Louis had no gyro but wet inclinometers (useless during accelerated turns). And had no windshield neither autopilot. Nevertheless Lindbergh was able to control the plane in the middle of the night over the Atlantic.

https://www.google.com/search?q=spirit+of+st+louis+instrument+panel&rlz=1C1CHFX_enUS593US593&espv=2&biw=853&bih=399&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjU-7Orl8TMAhVEKCYKHYJBDZ8QsAQIGw&dpr=2.25#imgrc=C1GagS6zpaQbxM%3A

With gyros covered I have been able to complete an ILS approach on the Microsoft simulator and later at KFXE. The key to success is to practice these events on a simulator and avoid over control.

José 

[DXB]

3 minutes ago, bonal said:

To DXB as another VFR guy even with back up I know I would have a very hard time controlling it once I was in the IMC.  And assuming my AP was NG and knowing my plane fly's hands free I would request updated headings from ATC keep my control inputs to a minimum not let my brain trick me into thinking something that's not and keep a sharp eye on the Garmin to confirm what's going on.

Yes- I wouldn't even remotely want suggest a portable AHRS provides a reliable lifeline to a VFR pilot blundering into IMC.  But I do wish the pilot here had a reliable backup, and they seem to be much easier to have at hand than in the past, even if one flies multiple different planes where you don't have control over what is in the panel.  It's sad to see someone die only for lack of a reliable AI. And I imagine the partial panel skills are tough to maintain even for the most seasoned folks.

[carusoam]

Do I understand correctly..?

VFR pilot above IMC?  partial panel because of vac loss.  His lifeline is the air traffic controller.  ATC was going by the book.  The pilot was clear regarding the cause of his challenge.

what I don't understand is if he had any instrument training or any recent partial panel exercise.  I would have to assume the answer is no.

partial panel, no recent instrument training, and making turns to headings while one guy behind a screen is going by the book.  Neither party took it as seriously as it was. The emergency was called. Both parties assumed that control would be maintained...

I would think few things...

1) err on the side of caution.  Get a team of people working for you...

2) if there is no team.  You really are alone.  climbing and descending using partial panel prior to entering the clouds is a must.  

3) Avoid making turns.  The plane is out over the ocean with a few thousand feet of clouds between where he is and where he needs to be. Fly straight and level descending slowly.  When all is good continue descent through the clouds...

4 Descend slowly with level wings.  Level off at 1,000' (clouds were at 1,600').  Once below the clouds, continue on VFR.  Head to church in Sunday....

Summary: Do not enter clouds on partial panel with out practice.

Traditional partial panel is a terrible exercise when real life throws in turbulence.  Watch how sensitive the instruments are while bouncing around.

Did I understand this all correctly?

Best regards,

-a-

 

[DXB]

Just now, carusoam said:

 

VFR pilot above IMC?  partial panel because of vac loss.  His lifeline is the air traffic controller.  ATC was going by the book.  The pilot was clear regarding the cause of his challenge.

what I don't understand is if he had any instrument training or any recent partial panel exercise.  I would have to assume the answer is no.

My impression was that this was a seasoned IR pilot on an instrument flight plan-  sorry if I got it wrong?

[Marauder]

Just now, carusoam said:

Do I understand correctly..?

VFR pilot above IMC?  partial panel because of vac loss.  His lifeline is the air traffic controller.  ATC was going by the book.  The pilot was clear regarding the cause of his challenge.

what I don't understand is if he had any instrument training or any recent partial panel exercise.  I would have to assume the answer is no.

partial panel, no recent instrument training, and making turns to headings while one guy behind a screen is going by the book.  Neither party took it as seriously as it was. The emergency was called. Both parties assumed that control would be maintained...

I would think few things...

1) err on the side of caution.  Get a team of people working for you...

2) if there is no team.  You really are alone.  climbing and descending using partial panel prior to entering the clouds is a must.  

3) Avoid making turns.  The plane is out over the ocean with a few thousand feet of clouds between where he is and where he needs to be. Fly straight and level descending slowly.  When all is good continue descent through the clouds...

4 Descend slowly with level wings.  Level off at 1,000' (clouds were at 1,600').  Once below the clouds, continue on VFR.  Head to church in Sunday....

Summary: Do not enter clouds on partial panel with out practice.

Traditional partial panel is a terrible exercise when real life throws in turbulence.  Watch how sensitive the instruments are while bouncing around.

Did I understand this all correctly?

Best regards,

-a-

 

I believe he was flying under IFR. They mentioned being on a Victor airway.

[carusoam]

He is IFR flying starting at 7,000'... Completely calm, asking for additional weather...weighing options.

In IMC... He says he has lost more control and more of the panel. While climbing back to 7000’

winds on the ground are not strong.

-a-

[Marauder]

5 minutes ago, DXB said:

Yes- I wouldn't even remotely want suggest a portable AHRS provides a reliable lifeline to a VFR pilot blundering into IMC.  But I do wish the pilot here had a reliable backup, and they seem to be much easier to have at hand than in the past, even if one flies multiple different planes where you don't have control over what is in the panel.  It's sad to see someone die only for lack of a reliable AI. And I imagine the partial panel skills are tough to maintain even for the most seasoned folks.

Many of us learned to fly instruments without the benefit of backup attitude indicators and using just partial panel. With the available backup hardware out there, it makes no sense to fly without redundancy.

 

[Marauder]

18 minutes ago, bonal said:

To DXB as another VFR guy even with back up I know I would have a very hard time controlling it once I was in the IMC.  And assuming my AP was NG and knowing my plane fly's hands free I would request updated headings from ATC keep my control inputs to a minimum not let my brain trick me into thinking something that's not and keep a sharp eye on the Garmin to confirm what's going on.

And even experienced instrument flyers will get the leans @ times.

[Guest]

Partial panel training and practice is a must.  Recently I flew with a buddy before his multi ride.  With foggles on he flew 20 mile to the practice airport, did 2 laps in the hold at the NDB, transition the the GPS approach 05, went missed, set up for GPS 23, missed, return 20 miles for the GPS approach 32 at home, ten miles back I failed his right engine, he had to make the turn into the left engine, at minimums he lifted the foggles and landed.  

He was almost an hour partial panel with 3 approaches, it can be done.

Clarence

[Guest]

1 minute ago, carusoam said:

He is IFR flying starting at 7,000'... Completely calm, asking for additional weather...weighing options.

In IMC... He says he has lost more of the panel. While climbing back to 7000’

-a-

Was he loosing more of the panel, or his ability to fly on what he had left?

Clarence

[carusoam]

Lost More controls and more of the panel is what I believe he said.

What was going on beyond the vacuum being lost is hard to say.

Not even a brief 'holy crap that didn't work' just radar contact lost.

Another thing... the actual time of the recording is not the real life time.  The empty spaces have been removed...

Total distance from JFK to Hartford isn't that far.  2.5 hours of fuel is plenty.

Post it notes to cover failed instruments are good.

A brief practice on partial panel before entering IMC would be good.

not exceeding standard rate turns would be important.

an IR should be enough...

For icing on the cake...

a back-up vacuum pump.

A back-up Electric AI.

 

what actually happened and what really went wrong?

Best regards,

-a-