I think I may have found a Mooney. Thoughts? Engine/prop?

[CJpilot316]

I believe I may have found a Mooney that I like and seems like a solid plane. Its local, a '67 C model, no corrosion, all logs SNEW, one gear up about 10 years ago that was properly documented and repaired, and its been maintained by a mechanic friend of mine for the last 10 years. He also worked on my 172, and he is more than thorough. Paint and interior a solid 7/10, could probably use a little bit of minor trim work in the interior and a good buffing. It has all of the speed mods...one piece windshield, LASAR cowl, gap seals, etc. Basic IFR panel inside.

Issues:

The Lycoming 0-360-A2F on it is within 100 hours of TBO, but is running high 70s on all compressions, and all oil analysis checks have come back clear.

It has the Hartzell prop with the AD. The prop itself looks awesome, and in excellent shape. How much of a hassle is the ECI inspection on these? What would be a good replacement within a fair budget.

Does anyone know of any good used engines for sale?

[Hector]

I would certainly factor the cost of an overhaul into the asking price (same for the prop), but I would not be looking for a new engine until the current engine lets me know it's time for a change. Compressions are good, oil consumption is good, oil analysis good, engine runs strong? Until one of the above turns bad I would continue flying it. How long since last overhaul?

[CJpilot316]

Looks like quite a while. 25 years.

[carusoam]

-A2F is that correct?  I'm not that familiar...

The ECI for the prop is a couple of hours of maintenance by a shop with the equipment every year.  Equating out to a couple of hundred bucks unless you have to fly far to get it done.  Flying to get it done is just a pain in the but.  There are only 52 weekends in the year, it took one away....

There is a procedure to end the AD by putting red dye in the hub as an indicator.  Search for 'broken hub' to see what one looks like. 

Our MS prop guy is Cody.  You can search for some of his thoughts using the search function at the top of the screen.

you can also search for engine OHs.  The O360 is as low cost as they come.

Best regards,

-a-

[Hank]

My C has an O-360-A1D, which I thought was in all of them. What's an -A2F?

As far as hours go, price the plane with a runout engine. Check pricing for remans from your favorite shops, and as your buddy what he charges to remove and reinstall the engine, and to do a field overhaul with you assisting around the edges. This will clue you in in the total price you are committing to.

But I wouldn't overhaul based just on hours. Keep an eye on it and do the overhaul when something tells you that it's ready. Lots of information available on this subject, beginning with Mike Busch and Pelican's Perch. Read up and see what's involved, and if you're ready to go down that road to possibly hold off on that $25K job. Any flying that you do between purchase and overhaul will be gravy; expect zero hours, whatever you actually get will be free.

[CJpilot316]

Yeah, the logs show that its an A2F. I thought they all had A1D's as well.

 

 

[DXB]

Looking up O-360-A2F, I find impulsed coupled mags and fixed pitch prop - something seems funny here.  

[glafaille]

I'm looking for a C model myself and although I've never owned one, I have become very familiar with many of the things to consider.  With respect to your question concerning the prop, here is what I have learned.

Replace hub and keep old blades is about $3500 but your blades must be good, if not figure on $5000 for an entire replacement prop.  For a new Top Prop I have seen eveything from $7000 to $8500.

Leaking fuel tanks and corrosion are potential problems, educate yourself on those 2 issues.  SB208B concerns the inspection of the tubular structure for corrosion and replacement of insulation, make sure it has been complied with.  The leaking tanks issue is common and something most owners have to deal with occasionally.  The only permanent solution seems to be the installation of bladder tanks although some folks swear by a total strip and re-seal by a dedicated Mooney tank repair company.

[CJpilot316]

7 minutes ago, DXB said:

Looking up O-360-A2F, I find impulsed coupled mags and fixed pitch prop - something seems funny here.  

I'm suspecting that the mechanic typed the wrong designator.

[Hector]

I have a 67C and it has the O-360-A1D.

[carusoam]

Fixed pitch would set the project back a bit...

Make sure that the engine is legal to mount on the plane.  Sounds like a description has gone wrong.

Part of the PPI would include matching all serial numbers and major part numbers to the logs and that FAA/M20C(design document) the Type Data Sheet or TDS... (Thanks Yetti)

Best regards,

-a-

[CJpilot316]

I'm looking at log entries from 1988, and most recently, in 2014, showing it as a A2F. I'm not sure its possible though. The plane does has a CS prop.

What about doing a top overhaul and just flying it?

[Bob_Belville]

According to this site the M20C succeeded the M20B in 1962 and the O360-A1D was the only engine listed throughout the long life of the C (1978). 

http://www.mooneyevents.com/chrono.htm

[Yetti]

The Type Data Sheet

http://www.67m20e.com/Mooney%20TCDS%202A3%20Rev%2052%20dtd%209DEC10.pdf

A1D or A1A for the C model   Page 11

[CJpilot316]

Just now, Bob_Belville said:

According to this site the M20C succeeded the M20B in 1962 and the O360-A1D was the only engine listed throughout the long life of the C (1978). 

http://www.mooneyevents.com/chrono.htm

Thought so. Must be a typo. The engine that is on it did have a prop strike related to a gear up, but was torn down, inspected, and returned to service.

I found an A1D for sale that had a prop strike at 400SNEW, for $5000 with all logs. Good overhaul candidate?

[Bob_Belville]

Just now, Yetti said:

The Type Data Sheet

http://www.67m20e.com/Mooney%20TCDS%202A3%20Rev%2052%20dtd%209DEC10.pdf

A1D or A1A for the C model   Page 11

The M20B had an O360- A1A...

[Yetti]

well the Type Data in the link for the B says A1A or A1D....

 

[Bob_Belville]

Just now, Yetti said:

well the Type Data in the link for the B says A1A or A1D....

 

So either engine could be used in either model. But that does not tell us much about what was actually installed and in what numbers.

[cliffy]

The only way to be sure on the designation of the engine is to look at the data plate on the engine. Just because it fits and is installed on the airplane doesn't mean it's legal. The data plate will say just what model engine you have installed and what serial number also. Now check the TCDS sheet to see if the engine is legal to be in the airframe. If it doesn't match the TCDS make darn sure of what you are doing before you buy the airplane. You should also check to see what are approved propellers for the model engine and airplane.

This is where a proper pre-purchase inspection comes in. ALL the model numbers and serial numbers need to match the logs AND legality for installation on the airplane.

 

[cliffy]

A few more thoughts

Look at the first log book from the factory and see what engine the airplane came with originally. If it is different than the A2F (it will be)  now go look through the books to see where it was changed to the A2F. If there is no mention of an engine change by engine type then you may have undocumented work having been done on the airplane. Check any engine overhaul entries for a crankcase change. If none are listed, again, undocumented work done on the airplane. If the crankcase change is listed, read to see what authority they used to change the crankcase. If none shown, INVESTIGATE THOROUGHLY BEFORE YOU PUT ANY MONEY DOWN. Once you buy it it's yours. You'd have the same problem selling it as he does now  (the appearance of an incorrect engine installed). There could be other damage that was done and not recorded besides the engine change (another gear up? off airport landing with airframe damage? Who knows? 

Don't just assume he knows that the engine is wrong. He may not know. 

[Ron McBride]

In my F. I have an IO 360 C1C.  With log book entry's converting it to an A1A, the correct model.   There is also a 337 for this.  Double check this also.  I have had many annual's with different shops, they have been good with this.

Ron

[Loogie]

Entry mistakes are not uncommon, I found a few old ones in my logbooks, like wrong filter ID on an oil change, etc.. Sloppy work to get paperwork done at the last minute...  The best mechanics, treat the logbook as part of the maintenance process not as an afterthought.

 

if it does have an engine that is not approved, that would be great leverage on the purchase to put a nice legal engine on it.  

If it is not legal, the seller doesn't have any leverage or legality to sell an "airworthy airplane" because it is not airworthy.  Tough situation for the seller, which he will have to deal with any purchaser...

 

if if it is just bookkeeping, then it can just be corrected with an entry by an IA, hopefully it is just a clerical error.

[steingar]

Yeah, price it as a runout, but fly it as long as you can.  Old engines are way safer than new ones.  You can leave the prop be, but good luck selling it.  Better be one cheap Mooney.

[CJpilot316]

I believe that the engine was an A2F converted over to A1D somehow. I'm going to see the plane and inspect the logs thoroughly next week to figure it out. I plan on running the engine to 100 past TBO, that'll get me to next year, and ill send it in for overhaul and probably a Top Prop. I can buy the plane as it sits for around $20K, Ill have a prebuy/annual done on it and fly it to its new home in Florida.

[carl]

you should fly the plane when you see it. 

and post pictures before you put money down.