Is Mooney suitable for learning how to fly?

[HC]

Good afternoon, everyone!

I am a student pilot of 54 years old and attending a flight school in NoVA, DC metro area. While attending school, I feel that buying is more economical than renting. Typical training planes at school are C172. So it may be logical to buy either C150, 152 or 172 and move to other planes later. Falling in love with all these fantastic Mooney stories, however, I may end up with Mooney as my dream plane, and now consider buying a Mooney for my learning and building up my skills on how to fly. Here are some questions that I may need your advice.

1. Mooney being a complex plane, is it more difficult to learn fundamentals of how to fly than such as C150 or 172?

2. What would be a proper model to meet my purpose, M20C, J or K?

3. Is it better to buy my target plane now or to buy a cheaper Mooney, learning and building time on it, and move to a target plane, such as M20K 252, later?

4. Any other factors that I have to consider?

Thank you so much for your help in advance. 

[N201MKTurbo]

There are some who will say that learning in a complex airplane is foolish. My take on it is that it will take a little longer to learn how to work the landing gear and the propeller, but if you don't know any better you will think they are just a normal part of flying.

If a Mooney is what you want to fly, then go for it! (A good choice by the way)

The Mooney is a tough bird, as long as you put the wheels down before you land, it is hard to hurt.

I would probably avoid touch and goes until you feel real comfortable landing the thing.

[rbridges]

I don't know how much it hurts the plane, but I really beat the heck out of the 172 that I started my training.  On the other hand, I really got much better with my plane when I did my instrument training.  I think a lot of that has to do with being in my own plane.

[Oscar Avalle]

Welcome to the mooney community! You are posting some very pertinent questions. I will try to give you my ideas about what you are asking.

Overall comment: to learn how to fly is a long and arduous fun process! But the plane you use to learn normally takes a lot of beating and abuse, simply linked to the fact that you are learning. In particular the landing chapter is the one where the plane suffers a lot. I at least waited until I had my license to move into the club of airplane owners... But that is a matter of opinion.

1. In a complex airplane you have more distractions (gear, prop etc) also normally you are faster, so it may make it harder to learn the fundamentals. You learn how to walk and then you learn how to run...

2. Given 1) I would keep it simple and go for a M20c.

3. I would go for a cheaper model and then upgrade

My two cents to start the discussion. I am sure others will have different opinions...

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[kpaul]

Just now, N201MKTurbo said:

There are some who will say that learning in a complex airplane is foolish.

Yep you hear that quite often.  But lets look at a successful pilot training programs (USAF)  They take pilots with an average of 25 hours in a DA20.  The next platform in a T-6 Texan II.  Not too complex right (1100 horse power, retract, fully aerobatic)  and that is used as the primary trainer. 

Yes, it may take a bit more dual time then a C-150 but you will be a better pilot in the end.

[Shadrach]

Primary in a Mooney is possible.  It will take considerably longer to solo. You want someone well versed in Mooneys to do the training as your leash is going to need to be cinched considerably shorter than it would be in a spring steel geared Cessna. Insurance costs may make it a non starter.

[neilpilot]

An insurance quote might put your Mooney trainer is perspective....

[BDPetersen]

The fixed gear, fixed prop M20D Master was an ok primary trainer in its day. I did a fair amount of it. Adding gear operation and prop management would not overload an able student. 

[gsengle]

Do a search, we've had this thread 2-3 times in the last 2-3 years... That's said, I wouldn't want any student in my mooney, myself included. Seriously learn to fly at least through solo and good landing technique in a rental, imho!

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[Mooneymite]

In aviation, it's always better to do your learning on "someone else's" plane.  

Once you've got the basics down, a Mooney is a great plane for building time and expertise!  About the time you're ready for your complex sign-off is a great time to Mooney-ize yourself.

 

Edited January 27, 2016 by Mooneymite

[CaptainAB]

I've known too many student pilots that go through this thought process and then never get their ticket. I'd say get your license first. Hopefully you can learn in steam gauges and on a g1000 and decide which way you want to go. 

 

[Raptor05121]

I vote learn to land in someone elses plane. I sure as hell dropped a 152 and Cherokee from a few feet above the runway once or twice. I would cringe at the thought of doing that in a Mooney. Not to mention, you'd get to your destination so quick, you'd have to do more cross country flights to meet the hour requirements

[C-GHIJ]

Yes you can do your PPL in a Mooney.  My partner and I did ours in our M20C no problem at all.  They are great aircraft and very rugged.  The instructor may be a little more cautious teaching you in it than they would be in a 172 but it will make you a better pilot in the end.

Yes it may take you a few more hours to get your licence in it, but you will need to upgrade to a complex plane which will take instruction anyway if you do it in a 172.

As for insurance, where was no great jump in premium because I was a student, because you will be with an instructor.  My insurance was really reasonable and almost the same as a 172 (I was also looking at buying a 172 also for the same reason).  I bought the Mooney and got the airplane that I really wanted in the end.

Just my 2 cents worth.

[N33GG]

2 hours ago, kpaul said:

Yep you hear that quite often.  But lets look at a successful pilot training programs (USAF)  They take pilots with an average of 25 hours in a DA20.  The next platform in a T-6 Texan II.  Not too complex right (1100 horse power, retract, fully aerobatic)  and that is used as the primary trainer. 

Yes, it may take a bit more dual time then a C-150 but you will be a better pilot in the end.

Note that they do not start with the T-6.  The 25 hours in a DA20 is primary, and key.  IMHO etc... my views on this topic are well recorded on other threads.

[N601RX]

In addition to things mentioned in other post, most Mooney's don't have copilot brakes.  You  will be able to find a few that do, or they can be added to some models.

[bonal]

Hmmmm lets see.. This is definitely an opinion piece as on similar threads I purchased a 150 and did my PPL in it and after getting my certificate did a good bit of flying before getting my Mooney. I then sold it for not much less than I bought it for. The 150/152 are great platforms for training one of those is doing fully developed spin recovery. Another thing they are very demanding and forgiving airplanes. By that I mean you really have to fly them well to fly them right but if you make mistakes they forgive and forget. With limited performance you really learn about power curve and density altitude. Much easier to build time cause it takes more time to get anywhere. Maintenance is much less costly. Can you train in a Mooney, certainly you can train in anything but I disagree that training in a Mooney will make you a better pilot than someone using a true trainer. Another advantage is training on short dirt strips. How many of you a Ok with doing that in your Mooney (Piperpainter) accepted 

just my humble opinion 

[cnoe]

You might find that contrary to your assumption, learning in your own Mooney won't necessarily be more economical than renting a trainer. A recent thread examines the hourly cost of flying (a Mooney) and I'm pretty sure you can rent a Brand C or P trainer for less.

And all it takes is one porpoised landing to add considerable time and cost to your training. Wait until you're licensed and then buy the plane you really want.

Just my opinion.

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[C-GHIJ]

By teaching in a higher performance aircraft, you learn to be more precise in your movements and controls.  I have taught flight instruction in gliders for decades and the students that learn on the higher performance ships take longer and can not solo as early but I find that they have not developed the sloppy habits that some people get once they go solo and are flying on there own.  They can make mistakes and get away with things that they can't do in a higher performance airplane.  The bad sloppy habits are hard to break after a person has been doing them for a while.

The first rule when teaching is to be very precise in what you show and make them do.  First learned, best remembered......  In a basic trainer. I can let the student do more of the flying sooner but If the choice of trainer was up to me (the students choose, as the basic trainer is less money) I would pick the higher performance one every time.

Just my opinion, I know not everyone will agree with me BUT in the end, the decision is up to the person putting out the money.  He asked if it was possible to train in the Mooney and it most certainly is. 

 

[M20F]

25 minutes ago, C-GHIJ said:

They can make mistakes and get away with things that they can't do in a higher performance airplane.  

Which in my opinion is why you want to be using a trainer so when a student does make a mistake they don't kill themselves.  You can teach precision and good habits just as easily in a Piper Cub as you can in a F-16.

[DXB]

Plenty of evidence that it can be done  well, particularly if instructor knows Mooneys. Likely it will take longer than in a cessna or piper fixed gear trainer.  The nuances of this are often debated here.

Having said that, I learned in a Warrior, and I'm very glad I didn't try to learn in the C model that I bought immediately after finishing.  The main reason is that the extra learning, responsibility, judgement, and troubleshooting abilities required of an aircraft owner would have been too much on top of the task of learning the fundamentals for my PPL.  With more time and close mentorship available on the ownership end, it's certainly feasible.  

[Hank]

I took my checkride in a 172 at 52 hours. At 62 hours, I bought my Mooney, and had to do 15 hours dual for insurance. Part of that was the Complex Endorsement (it was my first Complex flight). So the fact that it will take you longer to solo doesn't matter, even with your license it will be a while before you solo in your Mooney.

If it's your goal, go ahead and learn in a Mooney. But for God's sake, get good at landing before going out in your Mooney, and get an instructor who knows Mooneys! Do not do this with just any instructor. Good Mooney instructors can be found through the Mooney Aircraft Pilots Assn (www.mooneypilots.org), the back of the Mooney Flier (www.mooneyflier.com), by recommendations here and from MAPA, etc.

Good luck with your training, and your eventual purchase!

[carusoam]

I want you to be a Mooney pilot.  Just don't rush...

 

0) have you taken any lessons and had to repeat them a week later because they didn't stick in the memory or your speed/altitude/direction control was a little off?  Expect more repeats when the cruise speed is increased.  How many hours have you accumulated?  Have you soloed yet?

1) Insurance for a student In a Mooney is expensive.  Get a quote today.  A year of Mooney experience and an instrument rating can make your insurance affordable <2k.  Without these, $6k could be normal each year...

2) Finding and buying a Mooney to match your expectations can take a long time.  Have you started to look?

3) From somebody I know category: relearning how to fly in a Long Body Mooney can be an expensive near-miserable experience.  Especially if you are slower to relearning than you expect. A C172 is much easier on the pilot, equipment and budget.  Transition training can be done the following week.

4) getting Mooney experienced flight training is best.  It costs more and may not be close by.

5) If you are trying to save money, this is an unlikely route.

6) Then again, you may be a super flight student.  A great Mooney CFI is at your home drome.  You have all the time in the world.  Your son is selling his Mooney and you want to take it off his hands. Jump on this opportunity, it won't last!

7) Put this in the category of learning to drive a corvette with a stick-shift. It can be done.  It can also get awfully expensive quickly.

8) take a shot-gun approach see what works best for you...

- start training in a trainer at the local airport. You can probably start tomorrow.  You have done this already...

- start buying a Mooney tomorrow.  It may take a year if you are as particular as most around here.  Describe what you want the plane for (mission).  Buying a C and finding later you want a K, would not save any money...

- get an appointment for your 3rd class  medical / student pilot certificate.  Some of us have difficulty with that at our (yours and my) age.

- find a Mooney specific CFI because he/she is going to protect your $50k - $150k machine from your low experience.

9) Hard landings aren't always preventable by really good CFIs.  Mooneys pilots are special...

10) whatever way is right for you, a Mooney is in your future.  So is your 55th birthday...

11) turbocharged flight brings you to high altitudes where Oxygen limitations are added to your low experience.  Running an expensive engine around the traffic pattern making multiple take-offs on a hot day won't be comfortable for you, the owner.  Being able to pay attention to multiple things required for basic flight then add six CHTs, six EGTs and at least one TIT.

Either way, get started.  Sitting on the fence trying to answer this question, time will elapse.  When you over analyze, You will have neither started training nor purchased a plane that meets your desire.

Fortunately, you have started training already.  See how many of these various assignments you can get done along the way.  When is your 55th birthday?  Following the air force advice would be good if you could turn back time a few years.

Are you contemplating getting your instrument rating?  Another way to spend more of your money...for a good reason.

Best regards,

-a-

[OR75]

One reason I ended buying a Mooney is that they are not trainers.  

Most rented and trainers are beaten up. 

[Raptor05121]

Its also why Mooneys are such a bargain compared to Pipers and Cessnas. People buy what they learned to fly in and rarely divulge into the wonderful world of Bonanzas and Mooneys. To me, it seems that a similarly-equipped Cherokee is right about the same price-point of the much more complex Mooney.

[MB65E]

Welcome HC!! Glad to have you. While you seek your M20, Go buy an old Cub or Citabria. That will make you better than a mooney pilot for sure. You'll get the best of both worlds that way. Heck, you might end up keeping the TW airplane and getting the mooney. I'd love to find a super D project by the way...

best of luck,

-Matt