How do you spell D A M A G E.

[michæl]

 

Your going to find very few if any 50 year old planes that doesn't have some minor level of damage either repaired or not.

All the aircraft that I have been looking to buy have been between 2008 - 2015.

[M20F]

 

All the aircraft that I have been looking to buy have been between 2008 - 2015.

You would be a lot better served by talking about your specific issue directly than asking vague questions about what people consider damage.  

[N601RX]

 

All the aircraft that I have been looking to buy have been between 2008 - 2015.

Then buy the new 2015 model and damage history shouldn't be an issue.

 

 

[michæl]

I most likely will. As for this discussion, I feel that it has been productive in terms of broadly addressing, and shedding light on an important issue.

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[carusoam]

When you read the logs before visiting, did they mention anything about the damage?

A couple of things to go on....

1) lying is bad.

2) getting caught lying is worse.

3) reputable businesses are pretty good about avoiding lies like these.

4) one weird situation comes about, after some damage has occurred that can be covered by the latest upgrade.

new prop, one piece belly, log mentions a tear down of the engine.  Clearly not NDH to an educated buyer.

5) realistically there has to be no damage on the other side of the one piece belly or it will be found in the PPI.

6) as a buyer, you want to be up front with your expectations.  I am interested in buying a plane like you have advertised.  I intend to have a PPI done.  Is there anything I need to know about the plane that doesn't match the advertisement before I travel to see it?

7) There was a 2015 Mooney involved in an accident last year.  How do you know that the next 2015 one you are looking at isn't the accident plane?  PPI.  It is a used plane not being sold to you as new with a warrantee.

8) thought you wrote a Purchase agreement? These are the topics that go into that document.  It doesn't need to be drawn up by a lawyer. But for this much money, it wouldn't hurt to use one.

9) what is included, how much it's going to cost, when the payments are going to be made, to who they are going to, US dollars, who pays for PPI, who pays for AW issues, who pays for training and delivery, earnest money, down payment, final payment

10) balance your need for the truth with what you are exposing in negotiating strength.  Only you can answer this one.  You are doing the negotiating.

11) If I were buying a plane and it said NDH.  I am expecting that the PPI done at the MSC isn't going to uncover any undocumented fixes or left over damage.  NDH means No Damage History.  An expert shouldn't be able to uncover it.

12) hire an expert to do this work.

13) know what you are looking for is expensive.  The negotiation tactic needs to match the object being sold.  It will be different than buying an ’65C from an individual owner.

14) the important thing is to get 100% of what you are paying for. Which is 100% of what is advertised. It is not about how low a price I can get an Ovation for.  If you can do that too, spectacular!

15) the best part of working with AAA was the honesty, communication and follow through.  

16) when you are looking at two different planes from two different sellers you can ask the sellers for their best price, because you have a second plane that you can go buy.

17) when you tell everyone you are looking for a 2008 O, your negotiation strength is getting away.  There were only two available. And you exposed what you wanted.

18) I admire your honesty.  Use the same honesty when you approach the next one. Focus on getting 100% of what is being advertised.  Then make sure it matches the advertisement. Then try to get the best deal.

19) This is the route I took when buying my O.  It was at the end of 2008...

My experience comes from buying and selling industrial machinery both new and used.  Lying is a poor business practice.  In business it would cost one's reputation.  Clients all talk when they see each other at commercial gatherings.  Similar to being on MooneySpace, there is plenty of discussion on good places to go and places to avoid for various reasons.

 One sales Guy I worked for said to me, some puffery is expected.  Meaning you can really put a shine on something in your description.  Over selling the value of things.

The nice thing about a PPI on a 2015 NDH plane.  The Logs are not going to require a lot of reading.  This is the first step you have with the sales person.  A phrase like 'please email me a copy of the logs before I come out to see the plane would be helpful.'

Prioritize your needs, wants and others and approach it with honesty.  Expect honesty in return.  You will be rewarded by receiving exactly what you agreed to. Document, document, document every step.

This is not expert advice. I have only bought two planes. And sold one.  It is a description of how I went about my own business.  If it works for you, great.  Taylor it to your needs.  I had one failed PPI.   The seller 'forgot' to send me my down payment back. An invitation to visit the local small claims court was all it took to remind him to get it sent.

A good way to get guidance on buying a plane is printed by AOPA.

There are people that act as buyers for clients who don't have this level of purchasing skill. Not usually in the Mooney category though.  The cost of that service is very high.  It is best to pay more to get that 100% due as described above.

How does that sound for logic?  How's my writing today?

Best regards,

-a-

 

[Alan Fox]

 

More than likely the one that was damaged 12yrs ago for me.  Odds are it has a one piece belly, new antenna's, newer prop, an overhaul, etc.  The damage isn't the issue the quality of of the repair or lack thereof can be.  In almost all cases repair work done decades ago is a non-factor, and if it is documented it is very easy to determine if repairs were done correctly.

The challenge is most of the damage you really need to be concerned about is the damage which never finds its way into a logbook.  The idea as N1395W (Andy) says that a 40+ year old plane doesn't have some kind of damage on it, well I got a bridge in Brooklyn for sale if your interested.

It blows my mind , that people like these one piece bellys , they are a butcher fix , that adds weight to the plane , and is in no way a speed mod , and with the advent of screw guns , may save you 2 minutes , bottom line , when the one piece belly is off , the damaged stringers and scraped up metal are still there under it .....No thanks.......Even if geared up , I prefer the fix to be the original panels......   As far as a newer prop , agreed , and most Lycomings that are geared up don't get an overhaul , they get the accessory case removed and the gear dye checked , new bolt , lock plate and gaskets........ That's what the factory requires.....

[PTK]

 

 ...The idea as N1395W (Andy) says that a 40+ year old plane doesn't have some kind of damage on it, well I got a bridge in Brooklyn for sale if your interested.

I got a better one in Philly. It was just stripped and painted blue not too long ago and...NDH!!

It's the bridge to have!

[Yetti]

generically in the discussions damage has a whole different meaning on something new than something 40 years old.  values are calculated differently that should have been a discussion parameter.   Why because the object was closer to new and new value has real meaning vs 40 year old value where it is what a person would pay on a given day.  If we are talking about something close to new I retract my previous comments, they were based on something 40 years old.

[Sabremech]

 

Many aircraft have been written off as a total , sold at auction and rebuilt into an aircraft with damage history , As far as damage history not affecting value , that is total bullshit , If you have the choice between two identical aircraft , but one was geared up 12 years ago , which one do you want ?????   I thought so......Damage history is generally a repair that was not repaired by the replacement of a bolt on assembly , generally a sheet metal repair , involving rivets... 

The word damaged should be removed from aviation language. An airplane is either repaired correctly or not. As far as affecting value, what's to say that airplane that hasn't been geared up in the last 12 years isn't full of corrosion? Is it worth more than the repaired airplane? An airplane is either airworthy or not, been repaired correctly or not, but not damaged or not. 

I happen to have an airplane that's been repaired twice from gear ups and has the dreaded one piece belly with all that torn up sheet metal exposed when it's removed. Funny thing is that I can't find that torn up sheet metal yet as it was repaired  correctly by an STC.   Does my airplane have damage history or repair history? 

 

 

 

 

[Alan Fox]

Notice I used the word "identical"

[midlifeflyer]

 

I'm simply asking the question.  If an aircraft is listed as having "no damage history", what should a prospective buyer expect?

If an aircraft is listed as having "no damage history," at a minimum a prospective buyer should expect to have a complete pre-buy inspection performed by a mechanic of the buyer's choosing, including a full review of the aircraft logs (which the buyer should also review himself) and FAA title records (which includes 337s). Checking the N-Number against the NTSB database is not a bad idea either.

Edit: And never, ever, EVER accept "sold with current annual" as a replacement when dealing with a no-warranty purchase!

The problem is that it is so subjective. And aircraft are commonly sold "as is." It is very much a "buyer beware" situation. So you can pay to reduce the risk of a bad deal or accept the risk of paying far more later, whether for repairs or litigation or both.

BTW, I've been on both sides of disputes on the issue.

 

[Sabremech]

 

Notice I used the word "identical"

I haven't found that yet! 

[PTK]

To me NDH means exactly what it says: There's no history of any damage.

Therefore, if used, I'd expect the aircraft to have aged graciously of natural causes. Without any broken bones or bruises from causes beyond it's control, of human origin or otherwise.

Anything beyond that is DH. How it was handled, i.e. properly repaired and/or parts replaced, etc. etc. is another question totally.

[ArtVandelay]

It's rare to see a 30+ year old plane with no damage, everyone I looked at had some minor hanger rash or hail damage.

[michæl]

To me NDH means exactly what it says: There's no history of any damage.

Therefore, if used, I'd expect the aircraft to have aged graciously of natural causes. Without any broken bones or bruises from causes beyond it's control, of human origin or otherwise.

Anything beyond that is DH. How it was handled, i.e. properly repaired and/or parts replaced, etc. etc. is another question totally.

Precisely.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[1964-M20E]

If you properly arrange different Mooney models you can spell damage.

[midlifeflyer]

 

To me NDH means exactly what it says: There's no history of any damage.

Therefore, if used, I'd expect the aircraft to have aged graciously of natural causes. Without any broken bones or bruises from causes beyond it's control, of human origin or otherwise.

Anything beyond that is DH. How it was handled, i.e. properly repaired and/or parts replaced, etc. etc. is another question totally.

Flattened tire from a hard landing? 

[Sabremech]

 How many sellers are willing to let the buyer open up the fuel tanks and remove the sealant along the spar to check for corrosion on these no damage aircraft? A no damage aircraft can have the same effect to your pocket book if this is found. 

I'm going to open up both of my tanks and do this prior to traveling to have the tanks resealed or getting my airplane painted as it's a game changer. 

Is corrosion damage history then? 

[Alan Fox]

 

 How many sellers are willing to let the buyer open up the fuel tanks and remove the sealant along the spar to check for corrosion on these no damage aircraft? A no damage aircraft can have the same effect to your pocket book if this is found. 

I'm going to open up both of my tanks and do this prior to traveling to have the tanks resealed or getting my airplane painted as it's a game changer. 

Is corrosion damage history then? 

No corrosion is corrosion another bad word when buying an aircraft...

[Guest]

Damage history is a psychological issue more than anything.  If for example an aileron is damaged while pushing a plane into the hangar.  Plane "A" gets a new aileron, plane "B" gets a repair with all new factory skins, and plane "C" gets a repair with field fabricated skins per the AC43-13.  Which one has damage history?

Clarence

[Sabremech]

 

Damage history is a psychological issue more than anything.  If for example an aileron is damaged while pushing a plane into the hangar.  Plane "A" gets a new aileron, plane "B" gets a repair with all new factory skins, and plane "C" gets a repair with field fabricated skins per the AC43-13.  Which one has damage history?

Clarence

None of them! 

[Aerodon]

So I have a Super Cub project.  It has 5000TT and at least 3 accidents listed on the NTSB and if you page through the logbooks there are numerous repairs documented with 337's.  So it has a lot of accidents and damage history.  However on this reassembly, there is not a single repair, only replacement with either good used parts or brand new.  There is not a whole lot of difference in replacing an oil filter, engine or wing. All parts have numbers (PN's) and some have serial numbers (SN's), like the wings, fuselage, engine and prop.

So I can advertise the plane as fully refurbished, and technically it has damage history. Practically it has none.  I will make full disclosure and a serious prospective buyer should understand the situation.

The same logic can be applied to a Cessna or Mooney.  If it was taxied into a fuel truck, the wing could be 'replaced' or repaired according to the Cessna/Mooney maintenance manual.  Either way, it's damage, should be reported as such and the replacement or repair documented.  Then the buyer should make an assessment of the repair, replacement and possible further damage which is hidden or not yet repaired - say wing attachment points.  If it concerns you, there are plenty more nice airplanes to look at.  If it was many years ago, and the plane has undergone a Cessna SIDs inspection, I'd be less concerned. 

I have travelled commercially to see a plane, which the advertiser had not disclosed in the advert but the logbooks documented a wheels up repair.  I was pretty annoyed. But I had not got to a deposit / pre-purchase / contract stage.

In todays digital age, its not unreasonable to ask for a digital image of the entire logbook(s).  How much can it cost to go to Staples and get a kid to scan every page if you are too lazy?  Page through and make a decision if you want to proceed.

It might also help you write up a contract - if any repairs are discovered that have not been disclosed in the logbooks, I would say you should be entitled to an 'out', but probably not costs, unless you can prove the seller knew about it?

Almost every plane I have ever purchased has had original paint and interior - a lot harder to sugar coat anything.  I'd much rather buy a plane with tired paint, engine etc. and see what I am getting.  Then I can control the painting process, quality etc.  Unfortunately most of the time planes needing work are overpriced, and conversely planes with good paint, engine, avionics, interior are generally more expensive, but underpriced compared with what you are getting.

Aerodon

 

 

 

[ryoder]

 

It blows my mind , that people like these one piece bellys , they are a butcher fix , that adds weight to the plane , and is in no way a speed mod , and with the advent of screw guns , may save you 2 minutes , bottom line , when the one piece belly is off , the damaged stringers and scraped up metal are still there under it .....No thanks.......Even if geared up , I prefer the fix to be the original panels......   As far as a newer prop , agreed , and most Lycomings that are geared up don't get an overhaul , they get the accessory case removed and the gear dye checked , new bolt , lock plate and gaskets........ That's what the factory requires.....

I thought the same thing when I assisted with the annual this year.  The screw gun is fast and I bet a one piece belly would have saved five minutes max and that was my time as a helper.

[chrisk]

 

It blows my mind , that people like these one piece bellys , they are a butcher fix , that adds weight to the plane , and is in no way a speed mod , and with the advent of screw guns , may save you 2 minutes , bottom line , when the one piece belly is off , the damaged stringers and scraped up metal are still there under it .....No thanks.......Even if geared up , I prefer the fix to be the original panels......   As far as a newer prop , agreed , and most Lycomings that are geared up don't get an overhaul , they get the accessory case removed and the gear dye checked , new bolt , lock plate and gaskets........ That's what the factory requires.....

I was under the impression that a composite one piece belly allows the antennas to be moved inside the plane and this is where the speed mod comes from.

My plane was geared up by a previous owner. It still has the 3 piece belly, but it got a new prop and factory overhaul.   

 

[Guest]

 

It blows my mind , that people like these one piece bellys , they are a butcher fix , that adds weight to the plane , and is in no way a speed mod , and with the advent of screw guns , may save you 2 minutes , bottom line , when the one piece belly is off , the damaged stringers and scraped up metal are still there under it .....No thanks.......Even if geared up , I prefer the fix to be the original panels......   As far as a newer prop , agreed , and most Lycomings that are geared up don't get an overhaul , they get the accessory case removed and the gear dye checked , new bolt , lock plate and gaskets........ That's what the factory requires.....

Just to clarify, prop strike on a Lycoming requires compliance with FAA AD 2004-10-14, which make compliance with Lycoming SB 475C mandatory.  Lycoming has an additional SB 533B covering prop strike inspection.

Clarence